Dear Mr. Chiles,
Attached please find a copy of an Elevation Certificate sealed by you on August 15, 2005. Please note that the elevation certificate is not signed by you. This copy, which was sent to me by my insurance broker, has been used by his firm to obtain Flood Insurance for my property, but they need a signed and sealed document.
Pursuant to Rule 663.18 (a), you are in violation of the General Rules of Practices and Procedures as promulgated by the Texas Board of Professional Land Surveying.
Please send to me one original Elevation Certificate signed and sealed by you by Monday, January 11, 2016, or I will submit this elevation certificate with a formal complaint to the Board.
Sincerely,
Ms. Loretta B. Good-Smith, Esq.
Fact #1: I used to sign all of my documents with light blue ink, which made them almost impossible to reproduce at that time. Since then copiers have been improved to the point that they can now copy light blue ink pretty well.
Fact #2: This person is the fourth person in chain of ownership of this piece of property since my client requested the Elevation Certificate.
Fact #3: The copy I received was in fairly poor condition. The legibility has degraded significantly when compared to the one in my folder.
Fact #4: FEMA has revised the Flood Plains since then.
Fact #5: The structure in question contains 5,200 square feet and is situated on 3 very valuable acres, probably worth in excess of $3 million dollars.
First, I got amused. Now I'm getting perturbed.
I'm not going to answer her, of course. But I have been thinking of retorts, lol.
Jack Chiles, post: 352224, member: 24 wrote: Now I'm getting perturbed.
Me too, and I am not even involved. Looking forward to the good (& fun) advice you are about to enjoy right here real soon.
We get this all the time. I would answer bc you can just charge to certify it to the new owner.
Tell them they can have the person who the certificate was performed for call you and you will give a new copy, but if it's someone else you must certify it to them for $xxx.
And also explain about the new zone in that area so a new certificate would probably need to be performed anyway.
Unless they have an original copy that isn't sealed I'm sure sending it to the board is worthless. It's a copy that could easily have been signed before it was copied.
Or you can just respond and tell her to have fun bc you have already reported her to her board for blackmail which is ridiculously unethical
On 2nd thought maybe just ignore her. Or send her a blank email just to make her perplexed and explode
Rich., post: 352226, member: 10450 wrote: Or you can just respond and tell her to have fun bc you have already reported her to her board for blackmail which is ridiculously unethical
Blackmail and copyright violation. I would probably just respond with "No, ma'am."
Any board complaint can be a giant PIA even when it's frivolous. Resist your urges and send her a firm but polite email explaining that your original certificate did have a signature. A new certificate, on the current form, will cost $(x)xxx and you will need 6 weeks to get to it. Signing her name Esq. says that she is a lawyer, and she is just trying to bluster a free Elevation Cert. out of you.
I would request the name of their insurance broker that used an out of date document for insurance purposes. Then contact the insurance broker giving them the price for an new certificate or you will report them to the insurance board. I would like to see if the insurance company has the nads to go back to the buyer for an insurance cost adjustment.
Paul in PA
Paul in PA, post: 352230, member: 236 wrote: I would request the name of their insurance broker that used an out of date document for insurance purposes. Then contact the insurance broker giving them the price for an new certificate or you will report them to the insurance board. I would like to see if the insurance company has the nads to go back to the buyer for an insurance cost adjustment.
Paul in PA
I like this advice! Very sound!
Jack Chiles, post: 352224, member: 24 wrote: ..I'm not going to answer her, of course. But I have been thinking of retorts, lol.
Oh, go on.....take a walk on the wild side and answer her. You can roll over and let these folks
Something along the lines of....
Ms. Good-Smith,
Apparently you're in possession of a poor photocopy of an out-of-date Elevation Certificate I had prepared for my client, the record owner at the time the cert was prepared. When the cert was prepared it was my habit to sign in blue ink to specifically deter people from copying the document and presenting it as an original. There are a lot of people out there with no scruples whatsoever. The certificate was prepared for my client only. I am in possession of all the original correspondence with said client and can find no error with the way the cert was prepared and originally presented to my client. Please note this in your "formal complaint" to the State Board on Monday, January 11, 2016.
As it appears the FEMA form is not only outdated, FEMA has revised the FIRM panels in that area and the BFE may have changed. I would suggest you seek a current and updated Elevation Certificate from a competent Land Surveyor that you have not tried to strong arm into providing free services.
Coercion, even heavily veiled threats, are not only unprofessional but possibly illegal. I am forwarding your letter with my formal complaint to your State Bar Association and am contacting my State Board concerning the grounds for you "complaint".
fug you very much,
J. Q. Surveyor
YEA! B-) I like the too!
I hate giving in to bully's!
paden cash, post: 352234, member: 20 wrote: Oh, go on.....take a walk on the wild side and answer her. You can roll over and let these folks
Something along the lines of....
Ms. Good-Smith,
Apparently you're in possession of a poor photocopy of an out-of-date Elevation Certificate I had prepared for my client, the record owner at the time the cert was prepared. When the cert was prepared it was my habit to sign in blue ink to specifically deter people from copying the document and presenting it as an original. There are a lot of people out there with no scruples whatsoever. The certificate was prepared for my client only. I am in possession of all the original correspondence with said client and can find no error with the way the cert was prepared and originally presented to my client. Please note this in your "formal complaint" to the State Board on Monday, January 11, 2016.
As it appears the FEMA form is not only outdated, FEMA has revised the FIRM panels in that area and the BFE may have changed. I would suggest you seek a current and updated Elevation Certificate from a competent Land Surveyor that you have not tried to strong arm into providing free services.
Coercion, even heavily veiled threats, are not only unprofessional but possibly illegal. I am forwarding your letter with my formal complaint to your State Bar Association and am contacting my State Board concerning the grounds for you "complaint".
fug you very much,
J. Q. Surveyor
Couldn't have written it any better myself
I would like to qualify and explain my draft of the "response" letter to the attorney.
No. 1, if there's anyone that doesn't believe I deal with stuff like this exactly as I talk about it here on the board; I would direct you to ask anyone that has worked with or for me in the past. They should tell you "Paden calls 'em like he see 'em".
No.2, my brother Holden is an attorney. We officed together for years. He with his lawyering and I with my surveying. A good deal of his career has been in title work and criminal law. My sometimes "flippant" disregard for the wholesale BS that a lot of attorneys dish out is far from "off the cuff". It is calculated and designed to avoid anything other than factual notification. My "general counsel" has helped me out over the years with such correspondence. The last thing you want to do is get in a pecker-war with an attorney. They will win because they are generally large peckerheads....
All I have said in the above letter is basically "you're wrong and this is why you're wrong." And as a loving and caring professional surveyor I have attempted to direct the recipient to seek the services of qualified people to help them out with their needs. The notification of contacting the Bar Association would be real as real could be. And I wouldn't waste any time in doing so. The author of the letter is plainly personally THREATENING some woeful action that would befall those that don't heed the request. Upon the receipt of a threat I suggest you not only "see their bet, but raise them, too". You are holding a winning hand, play it. Once the attorney realizes you are NOT kidding about your actions, they usually start whistling a different tune.
But then again some don't. It's a dog eat dog world out there. The attorney may very well contact your State Board about a copy of a copy that has an illegible signature. If you've done everything correctly as you should, let them. Welcome the Board's scrutiny. I doubt very little would occur if your Board was contacted. I truly feel worse things would occur if you either gave in to the demands or ignored the letter completely.
Each of us would probably handle this type of thing differently. All I'm sayin' is the worst thing to do here is be a weenie....
"copy"
That is the obvious problem.
Your original signed certificate is with the original client and your product is being copied and sent down the line over and over.
It is not your responsibility to provide another original signed certificate after the original client's request was performed and tender was exchanged for your service.
0.02
A Harris, post: 352248, member: 81 wrote: "copy"
That is the obvious problem.
Your original signed certificate is with the original client and your product is being copied and sent down the line over and over.
It is not your responsibility to provide another original signed certificate after the original client's request was performed and tender was exchanged for your service.
0.02
Yep. Original client was happy. Transaction did transact. Who are you and why do I care?
Depends on the board, but from some of the stories told here, a board that is called to investigate someone may keep looking until they find something to justify their investigation. Head that off with a professional response to the lawyer.
Lots of good advice on here on how to handle it professionally. The more professional you are when/if responding, the better it will look to the surveyor board or the state bar. Also, very good example for why a Board seeks a response and information from both sides in a complaint investigation. Contradictory statements and evidence tend to help vet something closer to the truth. It's my experience that Tony at your Board is a very reasonable person to discuss this with.
Jack Chiles, post: 352224, member: 24 wrote: Dear Mr. Chiles,
Attached please find a copy of an Elevation Certificate sealed by you on August 15, 2005. Please note that the elevation certificate is not signed by you. This copy, which was sent to me by my insurance broker, has been used by his firm to obtain Flood Insurance for my property, but they need a signed and sealed document.
Pursuant to Rule 663.18 (a), you are in violation of the General Rules of Practices and Procedures as promulgated by the Texas Board of Professional Land Surveying.
Please send to me one original Elevation Certificate signed and sealed by you by Monday, January 11, 2016, or I will submit this elevation certificate with a formal complaint to the Board.
Sincerely,
Ms. Loretta B. Good-Smith, Esq.
Fact #1: I used to sign all of my documents with light blue ink, which made them almost impossible to reproduce at that time. Since then copiers have been improved to the point that they can now copy light blue ink pretty well.
Fact #2: This person is the fourth person in chain of ownership of this piece of property since my client requested the Elevation Certificate.
Fact #3: The copy I received was in fairly poor condition. The legibility has degraded significantly when compared to the one in my folder.
Fact #4: FEMA has revised the Flood Plains since then.
Fact #5: The structure in question contains 5,200 square feet and is situated on 3 very valuable acres, probably worth in excess of $3 million dollars.First, I got amused. Now I'm getting perturbed.
I'm not going to answer her, of course. But I have been thinking of retorts, lol.
"I'm not going to answer her, of course."
IMHO that is absolutely the worst course of action you could take...
Tell her that you used biodegradable ink designed to fade out at the same time that Fema raised the flood elevation. Also tell her that the current ink you are using is much more expensive.
James
paden cash, post: 352234, member: 20 wrote: Apparently you're in possession of a poor photocopy of an out-of-date Elevation Certificate I had prepared for my client, the record owner at the time the cert was prepared. When the cert was prepared it was my habit to sign in blue ink to specifically deter people from copying the document and presenting it as an original. There are a lot of people out there with no scruples whatsoever. The certificate was prepared for my client only. I am in possession of all the original correspondence with said client and can find no error with the way the cert was prepared and originally presented to my client.
Just leave it at that. No need to meet antagonism with more antagonism. And never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty. The pig likes it.
Jim in AZ, post: 352320, member: 249 wrote: "I'm not going to answer her, of course."
IMHO that is absolutely the worst course of action you could take...
I tend to agree with you Jim. A careful, proper, and professional response would go a long ways toward your credibility if or when a complaint is submitted to a board. Much more credible than simply ignoring the correspondence. But the OP may know other information about this situation that we don't know. Just food for thought based on what was provided.
Who knows, you may end up getting additional work out of it by providing a new report.