Witness Monument Placement

Mississippi regs recommend either ON the line or a prolongation thereof.
However, if that is not possible, then I would place a monument nearby in a stable place and indicate it as being a witness monument located BEARING and DISTANCE from said point. For example, this would be the case of a meandering ditch. Personally, I prefer ON the property if at all possible where it will remain in control of the client. If off the property, then a good explanation is due the property owner.

"Does it matter if a witness monument is placed on or off the property?"

In Florida, No, as long if it is referenced in accordance with "MTS".

We always try to place the witness corner on line with dimensions to the platted corner, however if that is not possible you can set a witness corner anywhere with proper location information shown on the survey.

B-)

I have some experience with this. Another surveyor found a section corner, in a pond, or lake. Then, they taped north some 150 feet, and set a WC. Turned out it was 1.8' East of the line. But, a number of surveyors did not know that, and have USED it as the line, now adding a kink to the line, and making one more little mess. My dad set a witness corner, some 30' north of a road corner, in a road. Eventually, it got bushhog whacked. Now there are several coordinates on that section corner. Within 1/2 a foot. Because it is not real sure where the WC was set, cause it got whacked.

I LIKE witness corners, that are simply SET flush with the surface. Or nearly such. I like them hard to disturb. And, I like 2 of them. In stable soil.

Then, the point is well preserved.

Nate

PS and a little further away, where it is not prone to be disturbed is BETTTER!

Field Dog, post: 341740, member: 9186 wrote: Hello,

Florida 21HH-6.003 states "When the property corner cannot be set, a witness monument shall be placed with data given to show its location upon the ground in relation to the boundary lines or corner." Does it matter if a witness monument is placed on or off the property?

Regards,

Mark

In the absence of a hard and fast rule, think about how it may be used. Living in a recording State I am not overly concerned about Surveyors being misled. The real concern is owners. They don't go pull maps before building fences or building a shed. We can't hold everybody's hand but we can help people avoid problems...

Recently I came across a description where the surveyor set a reference 20ft from and along the boundaries at all corners of the property.

It is in timber land and there are no fences or boundary marking on any trees or any witness trees marked.

Somebody that only gets the recording info and never checks and/or reads the descriptions of adjoining property are gonna be confused some day.

:gammon:

I've always referred to online monuments as witness corners and offline monuments as reference monuments. I think monuments actually on the line being marked are much preferable to ones that are not. I would only set one one someone else's property if there was absolutely no other choice.

aliquot, post: 341772, member: 2486 wrote: I've always referred to online monuments as witness corners and offline monuments as reference monuments. I think monuments actually on the line being marked are much preferable to ones that are not. I would only set one one someone else's property if there was absolutely no other choice.

A lot of Witness Corner Monuments set on the Kendrick Irrigation Project were witnessed in two directions and not on any particuler line. But, they were witnessed utilizing the bearing of the latitudenal and meridianal lines with a bearing and distance from the W.C. to the actual corner. The Townships were subdivided by the G.L.O. Dependent Resurvey for all the Townships that the project encompassed down to all 1/16th lines. The W.C. monuments are G.L.O. , but were established by the Bureau of Reclamation under the authority of the G.L.O. In order to do anything throughout the Project, the surveyor needed to refer to the U.S.B.R. Corner Record book. The W.C.'s were set due to roadways, irrigation canals, and laterals, etc. for any of the monuments, section corners, 1/4 corners, and 1/16th corners that would be destroyed during construction. When I was in business in Wyoming, I was lucky, as I was an ex U.S.B.R. employee and when I asked about getting a copy of the book, they gave me one of the two they had left on their office. I still have it in my survey reference library. A lot of the actual corners in some of the roadways were still place, but were buried a foot or more in the fill and were what you needed to use for the corner, not the W.C. to replace it as the footages from the W.C. did not really fall on the actual corner monument, sometimes by 0.3' or more.

I agree that it should be kept on the property where the property owner can see it. I also think the word "WITNESS" should be stamped on the corner.

One of the actual corners fell inside a CATV box. The senior party chief told us we should have opened the box to see if the corner was in there. The other corner fell inside a 6' WBF post. We set both witness monuments (1-1/4" IPCs) outside the property, in the ROW.

Field Dog, post: 341785, member: 9186 wrote: One of the actual corners fell inside a CATV box. The senior party chief told us we should have opened the box to see if the corner was in there.

Yes. Though i'm not sure what CATV junction box you're speaking of, smaller pedestals and water meter boxes don't always displace a corner when they're installed. A lot depends on the excavation required for installation, it's usually worth a look.

Those are some good stories! I was once tongue lashed by a company VP because I set the actual corner where it belonged; in a seawall. He told me I should have set a witness monument in the grass because it would have been faster. This was along the Intracoastal Waterway in Fort Lauderdale, FL. Another time I set the actual corner on top of a large, capped brick wall corner column. I was proud of myself! I wonder if any future surveyors looked up there. :stakeout:

thebionicman, post: 341753, member: 8136 wrote: "They don't go pull maps before building fences or building a shed."

Ain't that the truth! I especially love it when one neighbor puts up a fence (40' over the back line in one case), and the other neighbors follow suit.

Around here, the general practice seems to be that witness corners are set on line (or prolongation thereof), generally at an even foot distance. I don't know that it is part of any statute or ordinance, but it is what I've seen done most of the time. The other common witness corner I see is the 5' x 5' (or other even foot offset) that is calculated in for a lot corner that is blocked along both lines leading up to it.

I also prefer to put the witness corners on the side of my client as opposed to the other side. Although, I will change this if the other side is more accessible and more likely to be used by future surveyors.

I have run in to an issue with one of the (somewhat) local agencies in my area that has told me that witness corners are NOT ALLOWED on their subdivision maps unless they are individually approved by the City Engineer. So I asked them what to do when the subdivision design requires something (like a retaining wall with a wood fence on top) that would preclude setting the monument in the actual position. They didn't have an answer. The last map I did there, due to multiple retaining walls and an oddly positioned sidewalk along the street, ended up requiring witness corners for probably 50% of the lot corner positions. I asked the person reviewing the map if they had checked with the City Engineer for each of these conflicts. They said that they would just record the map and then we'd have to supply them with a Certificate of Correction once we determined where all of the witness corners would be... What a mess...

I agree with the general consensus that you should set a witness corner "on line" or on a prolongation of that line if at all possible. Sometimes it might be impractical or impossible to do so. If that's the case, I would make it very clear that it is an "offline witness" corner. I like the idea of maybe changing the title of it to a "reference corner". (Of course I don't know if you State Statutes allow for another animal like that in which case you call it an "offline witness". Two references, especially if it's offline would probably also be good. Along a right-of-way I would suggest radial if it's a point of radius and an even-distance (like 5.0' o/s). Maybe they can be called R/W Offsets as well. In my opinion, the biggest thing to do is to make it as clear as you can exactly what you did so that it can't be misconstrued by another surveyor.

I much prefer to stay on line or the prolongation thereof. I detest anything using bearings as that leads to the problem of being positive of the monuments controlling that bearing (or the mystic celestial variety, both ancient and GPS). Amazingly, I have had a very small percentage of all my boundary surveys through the years dictate the use of witness monuments because attempting to set a monument at the true corner is impractical or impossible. Creeks, ponds, trees and encroaching buildings are the standard cause of the problem. Once a young rod man hurled a bar out into the middle of a deep farm pond and announced, "There it is!"

As a surveyor; if I find a survey marker to be on a line; a few feet away from where I determine a corner should be; it's a turkey shoot: it's a witness corner. To the homeowner that finds it 10 to 20 years from now; it's not so clear.....

If there is absolutely no way to set the corner; the best thing to use is an aluminum or brass cap clearly stamped ON-LINE 5' OFFSET. Clear, concise; obvious to all that trip over it. You can even "dimple it" if you want...:snarky: