Just wondering. Personally I like doing it, it's not my favorite type of work (personally my favorite work is existing conditions/pre engineering and ROW surveys) but it's really interesting. It accounts for around a third of our work during the construction season. Here's a few of my reasons...
1) It pays WAY better than most other work. Average price for a residential boundary around here is $750. If it's through a title company they find people doing them for $500 or less. I can't even get guys out the door for that. Engineering surveys pay close but there are a lot of variables in the lump sum price that affect profit. Construction may be mostly hourly but we can command very good rates for the work, often a full keystone rate (double cost for those who have not worked in retail) for a crew. We an also command premium office tech rates since the computations tend to be pretty complex. And the hours add up fast especially when you factor in the property QA/QC work.
2) I find construction companies to be way more loyal than developers or title companies. Most of the construction companies we work with want it done right and fast, and they will stick with someone who can do that rather than take a chance with someone new...They will also pay a premium for that type of service. Most developers around here tend to just want the cheapest surveyors they can get with little care if it's done right or not. And we all know how title companies work...
3) It gets pretty detailed and interesting. For example we're doing a building right now that is being built into a rock mountain. Six stories. There are over 30 steps in the foundation walls/footings. We recently had to calculate an estimated volume of rock to be removed broken in to 4 different methods of removal (general hammering, trench hammering, general blasting, and trench blasting) and when it's done we have to do the final calculations. We scanned the rock face to create an accurate DTM and had to create a 3D model of the proposed building from the plans to place into the rock. Next we have to figure out how to lay this whole thing out with all those steps once they blast the rock out. We've also done some really interesting work our on bridges, in tunnels, and up in buildings. Most of this involves pretty complex methods of observation/data collection and pretty complex calculations in the office. Control networks have to be super tight and well planned.
4) Finally, and I know people will disagree with me here, we have mostly had better luck getting paid faster and with less back and forth than with developers.
Anyways, it's a good portion of our business, I enjoy it, it pays well, and our clients are happy with our work.
Tom
Pounding Hubs All Day, Plus The Liability?
I have only done a few days of all day construction stakeout as an employee. As a solo it has been very minor and only a few hubs per job.
Once a stakeout job goes South one quickly learns the dislikes.
Paul in PA
Depends on what defines construction surveying in your market. I run three field crews on my team, two for boundary and topo work and one dedicated to construction.
I don't mind construction, but that's because my guys have staked:
This
This
And this steel
On the other hand, I don't have any real interest (and can't make any money) in staking this day in and day out
You know, Tom, the layout of modern construction is a fascinating part of surveying. The technological advances in the last 30 years have made it an exact science. Digital terrain modeling, machine control and directional drilling were but fantasies when I started surveying. And I enjoyed applying the newer stuff to project layout. But to me the fly in the buttermilk is the never changing aggravation when dealing with contractors, sub-contractors, contracts, insurance, change order requests, etc.
I've never worked for any contractor that didn't do anything but wake up in a new world every day. The old "I need you out here now" crisis-ho phone calls. They want to act like their cacophony of scheduling has some sort underlying design other than desperation.
And in the last twenty years the plans we work off have diminished in quality. I can't count how many streets, pads and parking lots I've laid out with nothing but some silly "proposed" contours on a sheet of paper. And when you ask an engineer about some hard grades, they usually tell you just to "make it work".
And then there's the money end of it. People want you out on a job quickly to get it kicked off so they can turn in an inflated periodic pay estimate. Then the surveyor winds up getting paid out of the retainage at the end of the job. You've got remember, a GC spends other people's money, not his own.
There is nothing more satisfying than being a part of and watching some engineering marvel grow from the sands to completion. "I love the smell of diesel and topsoil in the morning, smells like..victory."
But I decided I would live longer if I didn't constantly expose myself to the aggravation. Besides, there's better money to be made elsewhere without so much liability.
“On the other hand, I don't have any real interest (and can't make any money) in staking this day in and day out”
Funny, that is 95% of my work. In the last 26 years we have placed 7500+ houses, and God only knows how many townhomes and condos on lots throughout central Florida and are busier now than in 2005-2007. We have enough income to have stayed in business for the last 26 years and show no signs of slowing down anytime soon. The majority of our clients have been with us since the business inception.
B-)
I did mostly construction staking -- about half field, half office -- for 10 years or so. Mostly residential and commercial, a bit of industrial. I found it to combine the worst of three worlds: boring work, high liability, and unpleasant working conditions. The repetitive nature of construction layout got old fast, the simplest of mistakes can cost a whole job's profit (or more!), and the noise, dust and danger of the big yellow machines made for a long day.
In the 20+ years I've been on my own, I've done maybe 50 staking projects. Most were small, one-day jobs laying out a building or some street improvements, several were small commercial sites that spanned a few weeks, and a couple were landfill projects that lasted months or years. I only take them on when there's a dearth of work I find more satisfying.
YMMV.
I too had bad experiences with construction companies. The engineers that I work with/for are not the top engineers or project lead engineers. Usually survey crews have to deal with the engineer in-charge of landev or grading or road/boundary layout.
Most work start out ok but eventually something always turns sour to the taste.
My chief complains are:
1. They act like they are GODS & we are the lowly minions yet they can't even determine grade differences or layout a straight line.
2. They think that we can finish all that they need in half a day.
3. They keep on knocking or destroying our controls & want us to finish right away. Everytime our crew visits a construction site, they spend a lot of time relocating control points that have been bulldozed, buried or moved by the construction people.
4. They don't believe that the top floors of tall buildings sway in the wind.
5. They think that GPS can set points with accuracies in the mm everytime.
6. They don't clear a site before the topo even if they have a free bulldozer lying around. When I submit my topo drawing then they start clearing the site that I have just surveyed. Then they call me up and say, "hey your topo plan has a hill over here but looking at the site there is no hill...."
I can go on and on and on....
No one has mentioned the danger or the noise. There are about a hundred more ways to die when working construction. No sewer line is worth dying for. That and the generators, drills, heavy machinery and other equipment making your ears ring all day.
One of the many reasons I like construction layout is that you really have to clang when you walk.
You can foul up a boundary survey and perhaps never get caught.
If you make a mistake in layout, you will get caught in one quick hurry and you will have to pay for it. Some folks don't care for that at all....I always liked that aspect.
hearing loss
I suffer from hearing loss. Although I'm sure it contributed, I can't blame it all on heavy equipment however. Rock & Roll, Marshall amps, various un-mufflered fossil fuel burning contraptions and genetics play a large roll, I'm sure.
Although my hearing loss is real I can't seem to get my wife to understand that the loss is only at certain frequencies. I can stand next to an 800 hp Detroit Diesel at 2200 rpm and hear everything the inspector has to say, as long as it's in his finest "WE HAVE TO TALK AT A HIGHER PITCH AND VOLUME BECAUSE OF THIS DAMNED BACKHOE!"...
But my wife sitting six feet away says, "Hand me the remote, please" and I can't hear her. Honest.
To each their own, but the question that really chaps my arse, to quote the Joker is, "why so serious?". This is totally a guess, but it seems that maybe 85-90%, possibly more, has a sincere dislike, fear, not worth my time attitude about it, so why try to regulate it with comical statements in your regulations like .."applied mathematics which includes the measuring and plotting of the dimensions and areas of any portion of the earth, including all naturally placed and man- or machine-made structures and objects thereon.."
I am not a licensee, nor will I ever be but I am probably more qualified than most to do this kind of work, yet if the oppurtunity came to go and run a large complex high profile project in say Cali, I would be SOL because of the way that their regulations are written. We would be scrambling sifting through the ranks to find the 10% of licensees that are willing and able to take on that kind of responsible charge. On those kinds of projects there cant be turnover so you really have to narrow it down to somebody that is dedicated on top of all that. It is really frustrating when you have several people inhouse that fill the bill with the exception of having a license to do boundary surveys, then come here and read about how most everyone doesnt have much interest at all in it.
Thats my $.02 spend it wisely
I grew up doing mostly construction surveying. The only construction staking I work on regularly is residential house staking as its good to fill in time gaps and leads to more profitable work such as foundation surveys, elev. certs., etc. I only do commercial type construction for a few loyal clients. Most of the contractors as well as many engineers in the area see surveying as a commodity and necessary evil. I have a few contacts who will call when the lowballer screws the job up and I'll swoop in to save the day on a pumped up hourly basis. Change orders, RFI's, "need it now" phone calls, waiting 90 days for payment, etc. ain't my cup of tea. All in all, my life is better steering away from construction.
Amen Roadhand
I am registered Land Surveyor with 38 years in the U.S.. The last 30 years have been boundary only, a close friend has been surveying for the same period of time taking on project similar to Roadhand's projects. He is not licensed but has knowledge of structures, process of construction project that that most registrants do not have, I could not even consider undertaking most of his projects. When I hear partially trained "want to bes" complaining about unlicensed surveyors doing construction surveying as something the board should rectify, it sickens me. Particularly here in AZ where if you work six years read three books you have your license.
The Engineering Surveyors license might be the answer, at least it would keep the boundary guys from pretending they were construction surveyors.
road hand: So you don't mind doing the work when someone else is on the hook if you or the contractor makes a mistake?
> road hand: So you don't mind doing the work when someone else is on the hook if you or the contractor makes a mistake?
Who would be on the hook for my work other than myself and the the contractor who hires me?
If the job super's name is Ken
I won't take the project. I don't know why, but every construction staking job I ever worked on with a superintendent named Ken was a total cluster. Seriously. I'll stake small or medium sized jobs. I do not have the patience for large, long term projects. Just my preference.
I've never worked for any contractor that didn't do anything but wake up in a new world every day. The old "I need you out here now" crisis-ho phone calls. They want to act like their cacophony of scheduling has some sort underlying design other than desperation.
And in the last twenty years the plans we work off have diminished in quality. I can't count how many streets, pads and parking lots I've laid out with nothing but some silly "proposed" contours on a sheet of paper. And when you ask an engineer about some hard grades, they usually tell you just to "make it work".
And then there's the money end of it. People want you out on a job quickly to get it kicked off so they can turn in an inflated periodic pay estimate. Then the surveyor winds up getting paid out of the retainage at the end of the job. You've got remember, a GC spends other people's money, not his own.
I have done construction surveying successfully for 30+ years in several states and my experiences are very similar to paden cash, contractors only seem to operate in crisis mode, plans are crap now compared to even 10 years ago, engineers are no longer design experts but practice conceptual design and how to escape liability like an attorney, specs are only used when job goes to hell, inspectors are just kids with no experience, pay is after everyone else, liability, liability, liability. As far as profit, it can be very good but it should be, for all the bullcrap.
I have had a few really good working relationships on projects where getting it correct was the priority that made construction surveying a dream, but by far its all ruled by greed.
Maybe it is just the market I have worked in and a better world exists somewhere else.
One thing that is funny is how many whinny unlicensed construction surveyors I run into that think they are worthy of licensing just because they can do construction surveying. I always tell them to go and get a license if they are so good and quit bitching.
when you put your house on the line or even at a minimum a half years pay for curb and gutter stakes than you are truly on the hook, until then your clueless.
> Amen Roadhand
>
> I am registered Land Surveyor with 38 years in the U.S.. The last 30 years have been boundary only, a close friend has been surveying for the same period of time taking on project similar to Roadhand's projects. He is not licensed but has knowledge of structures, process of construction project that that most registrants do not have, I could not even consider undertaking most of his projects. When I hear partially trained "want to bes" complaining about unlicensed surveyors doing construction surveying as something the board should rectify, it sickens me. Particularly here in AZ where if you work six years read three books you have your license.
>
> The Engineering Surveyors license might be the answer, at least it would keep the boundary guys from pretending they were construction surveyors.
:good: :good: :good:
Most of the unlicensed construction surveyors I know don't really see the need to get licensed just so they can do work that would involve taking a 50% cut in pay.
>
> contractors only seem to operate in crisis mode, plans are crap now compared to even 10 years ago, engineers are no longer design experts but practice conceptual design and how to escape liability like an attorney, specs are only used when job goes to hell, inspectors are just kids with no experience, pay is after everyone else, liability, liability, liability. As far as profit, it can be very good but it should be, for all the bullcrap.
>
It is absolutely a problem and one where a Experienced Surveyor can make a fortune. Where there is Chaos there is opportunity.
