I’m not understanding what your are saying – it sounds like your are saying that to be licensed and do construction surveying you get paid half of what unlicensed surveyors are making doing the same job?
I haven’t found this at all. If I thought that was the case I would let my license go and make twice the money with no liability. I worked as an unlicensed construction surveyor for many years and never made near what I make now. Even when I worked on union jobs and got to pocket my dues-$12 hr on top of the $45 I was already making it didn’t come close to my licensed earnings.
I'm saying that most unlicensed site engineers for construction companies make well into six figures and most licensed surveyors doing boundary work are cutting each other's throats for half that.
That is ridiculously bleak compared to what I have experienced. I am glad I am not surveying where you are working and if that is the case why do the licensed surveyors continue to do what they are doing for so little money? Why not get a better paying job?
So youre in the 10% that is capable , but you seem unwilling because as lucrative as it is you make more $$ surveying property boundaries. I am sure that is only business and not greed driving that decision, but it does convey the point I was trying to make. Of all the licensed surveyors in the U.S, it seems that only a handful are capable, willing, and financially able to take on this kind of work,so why write it into your regulations that it must be done under the direction of a licensed land surveyor? The demand is too great for the supply of qualified licensees willing to take on that risk.
I see how you could assume that I don’t do construction surveying because I pointed out the negatives of it. I in fact have several construction projects that I am currently staking, I do make more money construction surveying hr. per hr. compared to any other surveying that I do except maybe hydro work but that doesn’t mean I enjoy it. It used to be handled in a reasonable honest manner and now it seems all about greed and again, - liability.
I suspect you are an excellent construction surveyor but you are not incurring the liability or the business end of the game. I feel that if you did that for 10 years you would be singing a different song.
Why regulate it? Chalk it up to accountability; no one seems to have it anymore unless they are forced. I don’t’ disagree that there should be a separate branch of surveying dealing with construction. I have seen boundary only surveyors doing ridiculous things on construction projects.
Even if it isn’t a state license maybe it could be like hydro is now, separate organization but with great meaning in the field.
The demand is too great for the supply of qualified licensees willing to take on that risk.
I just don’t see this in my market, I see more like the cutting throat thing but plenty of surveyors bidding on projects.
I am looking to make a move though so I am glad to hear that I can go to another area, practice unlicensed as a surveyor for a construction company and make so much money. My licensing worries are over!
> I suspect you are an excellent construction surveyor but you are not incurring the liability or the business end of the game. I feel that if you did that for 10 years you would be singing a different song.
11 years ago, my very first post on the other board, I asked this very same question. I asked it about 2 months after starting out on my own venture. I didn't make it 10 years, not even 5. If I had any trust in anybody to survey at my standards, I could have expanded and grown. As it was though, I painted myself into a corner, focusing on my "good " contractor until eventually they were taking all of my time. At that point it was not long before it was more beneficial to them to just put me on As an employee rather than a subcontractor. Greedy bastards. I wasn't the best businessman I am sure, but it worked out for me. I wasn't making any less and I was getting paid every week instead of every month so I consider it a win win.
When you make your move, bring your license, it probably won't get you more money but it might get you in a more pleasant part of the country weather wise .
My apologies for assuming.
I am envious, it sounds like you figured out a bunch in 5 years that has taken me many more.
Fear of the unknown I guess.
Tom,
I'm not sure where you are located, but around here construction staking has become a low ball item. And if you are not a DBE, don't even think about working on any government project where it is not.
I have worked on a plethora of layout projects over the last 25 years including some very large projects. And as others have pointed out, the times they have a changed. Back in the day, my PC and would sit in the truck with our trusty HP-41s and be able to calc everything we needed to stake from the plans. Now days the plans are junk even if you have the CAD files. I seem to spend hours on the phone with the engineers trying to make sense of the damn things.
Then there is the 'Crisis' factor. The contractor's don't seem to comprehend that we don't sit around waiting for them to have us stake 4 hubs. Just this week I got a call from a contractor, one of the subs had just wiped out a stake I had just set the evening before. It just so happens that it was the most critical stake in the series. I was 3/4 of the way to a job an hour from the office when the call came in and the job site just down the road from my office. What a way to screw up a well laid out plan.
Then there is the liability. As a business owner this really worries me. I'm not so much worried about making mistakes myself but fast pace and crappy plans. Mistakes are costly. Just this week we found an engineering error, unfortunately too late for his E&O. Now he gets to pay for a new rial switch to be moved 80 feet down line. My heart was pumping hard when the contractor noticed the c/l I had just staked did not jive with the switch I staked and they placed the weekend before. I would rather get my thrills strapped in my rally car. And just out of curiosity, how does a none licensed surveyor procure E&O insurance?
Finally, there is the issue of payment. Since most of my work is for larger engineering firms I'm used to waiting a bit for my invoices. But with few exceptions contractor's seem to be the slowest to pay. 90 days would be nice. The only former client I have sent to collections is a contractor that has basically stiffed me for around 20k in additional services they requested. Nothing like working on a super fund site for nothing.
All of this being said, I still do a bit of construction staking for certain clients and it can be fun. It sounds like this fall we will be working full time on a six to nine month project laying out track. For the most part, given the crappy plans, liability and response times I don't usually find it worth the low ball prices.
Unreasonable timetables, lack of notice with expectation of immediate results.
We'll have the hole dug by 11 and the form guys will be there by 1, so you have two hours to stake. Oh but there was a cave-in so the excavator did not finish by 11 and he also wiped out all your control. Now you work with a form crew right on your heels before you can check anything.
I did it for ten years mostly as sub contractor. I enjoyed doing it, solving the problems and seeing things being built that I measured out. The money was pretty good. In ten years I only made three mistakes that cost me money (about $20,000 total). Nobody is so good that something won't go bad.
Pounding stuff in the ground on construction sites is very hard work. I damaged my neck doing it and had to have neck surgery. Then there is the liability factor. Looking back I can't believe I took on such high liability. I finally decided it was time to stop, control the liability and leave it to younger surveyors. The only way I'd do it now is as an employee of the construction company where there was no personal liability (the worst that could happen is being fired). Not going to risk the house, the farm and every thing else I've accumulated. If you can get E&O that will work until the first big payout, then your done.
> . And just out of curiosity, how does a none licensed surveyor procure E&O insurance?
We are self insured, and we design most of the things we build, sometimes we finance a large portion of the project as well. There is always a sense of urgency especially on an a +b or c project. We consistently meet or exceed our clients expectations and if we don't we make it right. We expect our subcontractors to adhere to our policy as well. If that means your well planned out day goes to pot, it goes to pot. You just have to put your big boy britches on and deal with it, tomorrow is always another day.
> Just wondering. Personally I like doing it, it's not my favorite type of work (personally my favorite work is existing conditions/pre engineering and ROW surveys) but it's really interesting.
Apart from the things that others have mentioned, the greatest thing about construction surveying is that you will know immediately when the next downturn in the construction cycle arrives. The phone will stop ringing and you will get to spend time trying to collect money from existing clients or as a creditor in their bankruptcy filing instead of having to rush proposals for new work out the door.
You will also know when the construction side of things pick back up. Some fella that has owed you a bunch for a year will call out of the clear blue sky and want to pay his bill...
That's a sure fire sign he's gonna try and hook you (again) into "investing" in his next project.
> > . And just out of curiosity, how does a none licensed surveyor procure E&O insurance?
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> You just have to put your big boy britches on and deal with it, tomorrow is always another day.
This is a reaction to this particular statement, not a direct question to the person who used it above.
Why is it, in my world, the only people who ever use this statement are unlicensed people talking?
Construction staking: I've worked for bigger folks: too hectic, lowball, always the promise of blue sky and you will become "an investor" very quickly when things slow down.
In my small shop, I keep it to house envelopes and that doesn't seem worth it, sometimes (low balling again).
You can get E&O insurance without being licensed. Shop around.
Construction surveying is a lifestyle. All these irritants that you guys mention, they are part of the job, no big concerns to most construction surveyors I would say.
And let's not forget, when construction is going strong, so is surveying.
I did a fair amount of construction surveying in the first 5 years of my surveying career. There are many positive aspects to construction surveying -
It is really cool to be able to drive around Paducah, Ky and point out:
I laid out that building, I laid out that parking garage, I laid out that roadway, I laid out the sewer line over there.
There is a great satisfaction to completing a layout project and looking out over the flagged up stakes and seeing the geometry of the design placed on the ground.
Laying out a linear feature, it is neat to see how perfectly plumb and aligned you can get the stakes. It is very neat to be able to see only one stake and then step to the right and see a whole line of stakes.
Despite the many positives, I just prefer boundary surveying. I enjoy hunting through the historic records to make sure I have everything in order, searching for and finding the old monument (or only evidence of the old monument), and reconciling what I find on the ground with what is recorded.
I'm glad there are folks who enjoy the construction aspect. It is just not ideal for me.
In the 80's and early 90's I did get satisfaction out of some construction projects. As the business transitioned to smaller crews, less info on plans and more reliance on digital information it got to be less fun. Some of that smoothed out as we adapted, but it never became enjoyable for me again. It was time to find a new challenge...
I moved to Idaho in the late 90's. Dealing with a younger segment of the PLSS gave me what I needed. Finding an employer willing to invest in me was icing on the cake. Boundary and Geodesy is my niche. Select construction projects still draw my attention from time to time, but not very often...
Did We Answer fattiretom's Question? Or Scare Him Away?
He never came back.
Paul in PA
Did We Answer fattiretom's Question? Or Scare Him Away?
> He never came back.
>
> Paul in PA
Scare him away from what?
He's making money. How bout you?
Pounding Hubs All Day, Plus The Liability?
Pounding Hubs All Day
LOL, that was the 80s!
Google Machine Control.
Then again, nevermind.:whistle: