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I never said we should provide services that are not needed, however how many of us were doing a Survey or finished one, then the clients calls to cancel and say never mind I found a copy of the Survey?
Not all court cases are made to the public, some are sealed.?ÿ
Well, that is an issue if you can't collect a fee for your time, but in a recording state that doesn't happen.?ÿ
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I never said we should provide services that are not needed, however how many of us were doing a Survey or finished one, then the clients calls to cancel and say never mind I found a copy of the Survey?
Not all court cases are made to the public, some are sealed.?ÿ
Well, that is an issue if you can't collect a fee for your time, but in a recording state that doesn't happen.?ÿ
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I would think more Surveys would get canceled in a recording state then a non recording state. I could be wrong.?ÿ Someone tells their friend I just ordered a Survey, friends says just go to courthouse and get a copy.?ÿ?ÿ
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If I did a Survey for the current landowner and they can not find their Survey, I print them out a out most of the time for free. If I Survey the tract and if the tract has been sold a couple of times since I did the Survey, I say I need to resurvey the tract and give them a price. In a recording state it's possible that they can just reused a Survey over and over again.
In Texas no one is saying you can not file the Survey at the courthouse, majority of the time the legal description is filed at the courthouse, most of the time the survey sketch is not. However both can be recorded.?ÿ
Why does a parcel being sold trigger the need for a new survey??ÿ I've never thought of a survey as being a one time use document. I guess that's part of the reason we can charge more in recording states.?ÿ A survey is good for all time, until something changes (e.g. monuments are lost, or a new improvement needs to be located).?ÿ
?ÿI don't feel comfortable charging someone to survey something again when a perfectly good survey already exists, especially if it is one of mine.?ÿ
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If I did a Survey for the current landowner and they can not find their Survey, I print them out a out most of the time for free. If I Survey the tract and if the tract has been sold a couple of times since I did the Survey, I say I need to resurvey the tract and give them a price. In a recording state it's possible that they can just reused a Survey over and over again.
In Texas no one is saying you can not file the Survey at the courthouse, majority of the time the legal description is filed at the courthouse, most of the time the survey sketch is not. However both can be recorded.?ÿ
Why does a parcel being sold trigger the need for a new survey??ÿ I've never thought of a survey as being a one time use document. I guess that's part of the reason we can charge more in recording states.?ÿ A survey is good for all time, until something changes (e.g. monuments are lost, or a new improvement needs to be located).?ÿ
?ÿI don't feel comfortable charging someone to survey something again when a perfectly good survey already exists, especially if it is one of mine.?ÿ
One we find or reset the corner and mark them so the landowner can find them.?ÿ
You never know what has been built or torn out in the last month, yet 10 plus years.
Did the neighbor add a fence or a building over the property line??ÿ
Maybe the recorded Survey is wrong, just because its recorded does not mean its correct.?ÿ
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I never said we should provide services that are not needed, however how many of us were doing a Survey or finished one, then the clients calls to cancel and say never mind I found a copy of the Survey?
Not all court cases are made to the public, some are sealed.?ÿ
Well, that is an issue if you can't collect a fee for your time, but in a recording state that doesn't happen.?ÿ
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I would think more Surveys would get canceled in a recording state then a non recording state. I could be wrong.?ÿ Someone tells their friend I just ordered a Survey, friends says just go to courthouse and get a copy.?ÿ?ÿ
This may happen, but an ethical surveyor would not start a project without ensuring there is a need for the survey. I am sure you ask why your clients are requesting a survey.
If they just want the piece of paper, most landowners would already have a copy of their survey. It would be included in the title report with their mortgage. If they don't, most surveyors would research the records, and if they found a usable survey they would send the client to the recorders office themselves. No need to wait for a friend.
If the client wants a survey just?ÿ to ascertain where their boundaries are on the ground, we certainly can help them without jumping to a completely new boundary survey. No recording is required if there are no changes.?ÿ
I don't think there a very many situations where the client-land surveyor communication is so bad that a survey is started that isn't needed for this reason.?ÿ
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I never said we should provide services that are not needed, however how many of us were doing a Survey or finished one, then the clients calls to cancel and say never mind I found a copy of the Survey?
Not all court cases are made to the public, some are sealed.?ÿ
Well, that is an issue if you can't collect a fee for your time, but in a recording state that doesn't happen.?ÿ
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I would think more Surveys would get canceled in a recording state then a non recording state. I could be wrong.?ÿ Someone tells their friend I just ordered a Survey, friends says just go to courthouse and get a copy.?ÿ?ÿ
This may happen, but an ethical surveyor would not start a project without ensuring there is a need for the survey. I am sure you ask why your clients are requesting a survey.
If they just want the piece of paper, most landowners would already have a copy of their survey. It would be included in the title report with their mortgage. If they don't, most surveyors would research the records, and if they found a usable survey they would send the client to the recorders office themselves. No need to wait for a friend.
If the client wants a survey just?ÿ to ascertain where their boundaries are on the ground, we certainly can help them without jumping to a completely new boundary survey. No recording is required if there are no changes.?ÿ
I don't think there a very many situations where the client-land surveyor communication is so bad that a survey is started that isn't needed for this reason.?ÿ
What do you do when someone calls you and says. I just bought a tract and I have the old Survey, however all of the corners are underground and I can not find them. I want to build a fence. Do you just find the corners without checking anything? Or say there is a usable survey copy at the courthouse go use that survey.
How can you ascertain where the boundary is without doing a new boundary survey? For me to do a boundary survey I find or reset the corners and find the adjoining corners.?ÿ
What do you do when someone calls you and says. I just bought a tract and I have the old Survey, however all of the corners are underground and I can not find them. I want to build a fence. Do you just find the corners without checking anything? Or say there is a usable survey copy at the courthouse go use that survey.
How can you ascertain where the boundary is without doing a new boundary survey? For me to do a boundary survey I find or reset the corners and find the adjoining corners.?ÿ
I tell that client that those corners were that surveyor's?ÿ opinion of where the corner is and that I may not agree.?ÿIf the survey of record is a recent one, and by a surveyor who is not a known screwup (there are really few if any of those around here - the recording process weeds them out), I just suggest that they call the surveyor who did it.?ÿ I really don't need that kind of work.
In any event, the monuments that we might dig up may or may not be in the positions they were originally set.?ÿ Measurements have to be made to confirm their veracity. If all the corners are present and not at variance with the record no new map is needed.?ÿ You don't always have to file a record.
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I tell that client that those corners were that surveyor's?ÿ opinion of where the corner is and that I may not agree.?ÿIf the survey of record is a recent one, and by a surveyor who is not a known screwup (there are really few if any of those around here - the recording process weeds them out), I just suggest that they call the surveyor who did it.?ÿ I really don't need that kind of work.
In any event, the monuments that we might dig up may or may not be in the positions they were originally set.?ÿ Measurements have to be made to confirm their veracity. If all the corners are present and not at variance with the record no new map is needed.?ÿ You don't always have to file a record.
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Do you charge the same price if the Survey does not need to be recorded vs recorded?
If some Surveys do not need to be recorded, then what is the point of being in recorded state? What is to stop a Surveyor from just saying everything he Surveys matches the recorded Survey.
Does anyone know the history or why some states are recorded states? I am thinking a group of Surveyors who were lousy at finding corners got together, and said man this job would be easier if we made all the good Surveyors record their Surveys so we could get a copy and just use their work.?ÿ
Do you charge the same price if the Survey does not need to be recorded vs recorded?
No. Preparing the map is a significant cost center. Not to mention the recorder fee.
If some Surveys do not need to be recorded, then what is the point of being in recorded state? What is to stop a Surveyor from just saying everything he Surveys matches the recorded Survey.
The rules are slightly different in the 2 state I practice in . In Oregon you do not have to file if you do not set a permanent (ie/iron rod or pipe)?ÿ monument. If you stake out a fence line with wood hubs for example, no record needed.?ÿ In Washington the trigger is finding a significant difference between current conditions and the latest record, whether you set anything or not. In practice, if you don't set anything with your name on it you are unlikely to get caught.?ÿ ?ÿ?ÿ
Does anyone know the history or why some states are recorded states? I am thinking a group of Surveyors who were lousy at finding corners got together, and said man this job would be easier if we made all the good Surveyors record their Surveys so we could get a copy and just use their work.?ÿ
Your assumption that having survey records means that we just blindly follow the last guy is specious, and, frankly, insulting.?ÿ?ÿ
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Do you charge the same price if the Survey does not need to be recorded vs recorded?
No. Preparing the map is a significant cost center. Not to mention the recorder fee.
If some Surveys do not need to be recorded, then what is the point of being in recorded state? What is to stop a Surveyor from just saying everything he Surveys matches the recorded Survey.
The rules are slightly different in the 2 state I practice in . In Oregon you do not have to file if you do not set a permanent (ie/iron rod or pipe)?ÿ monument. If you stake out a fence line with wood hubs for example, no record needed.?ÿ In Washington the trigger is finding a significant difference between current conditions and the latest record, whether you set anything or not. In practice, if you don't set anything with your name on it you are unlikely to get caught.?ÿ ?ÿ?ÿ
Does anyone know the history or why some states are recorded states? I am thinking a group of Surveyors who were lousy at finding corners got together, and said man this job would be easier if we made all the good Surveyors record their Surveys so we could get a copy and just use their work.?ÿ
Your assumption that having survey records means that we just blindly follow the last guy is specious, and, frankly, insulting.?ÿ?ÿ
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So in a recording State the fee for the Survey is more than a non recording state, but the difference in cost goes towards the filing fee is that correct?
The way everyone in a recording state talks about how great it is to go to the courthouse and get the last Survey, it does sound to me there is a lot of trust in that Survey.?ÿ You said you look at the Surveyors name if I trust him I use it, if not I tell the client to call that Surveyor. That does sound to be like blindy following.
What percentage would you say a new Survey is recorded that does not match the current recorded Survey, and don't include the reason a new Survey was recorded to reset a rod in the original location?
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If some Surveys do not need to be recorded, then what is the point of being in recorded state? What is to stop a Surveyor from just saying everything he Surveys matches the recorded Survey.
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Because they would go out of business because they would not be providing their clients with anything of value, they would be breaking the law and get caught, and hopefully our profession is generally an ethical one.?ÿ
I don't know what the reasoning?ÿ behind the original recording laws.?ÿ I do know most of the older surveyors were?ÿ against it, but now you will find almost all surveyors in recording states think it is a good thing. There are complaints about checking fees in states that require checking, and an occasionally over zealous checker in those same states. but very few will argue for abolishing recording requirements outright.
Recording has allowed us to achieve professional status in the eyes of the public and allowed us to weed out incompetent and unethical surveyors. Having fewer $500 surveyors to compete with allows for enough time to be spent on each boundary to provide a quality product. On a personal level, I feel pride in producing a product with my name on it that will?ÿ exist and be referred to 100 years from now.?ÿ
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If some Surveys do not need to be recorded, then what is the point of being in recorded state? What is to stop a Surveyor from just saying everything he Surveys matches the recorded Survey.
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Because they would go out of business because they would not be providing their clients with anything of value, they would be breaking the law and get caught, and hopefully our profession is generally an ethical one.?ÿ
I don't know what the reasoning?ÿ behind the original recording laws.?ÿ I do know most of the older surveyors were?ÿ against it, but now you will find almost all surveyors in recording states think it is a good thing. There are complaints about checking fees in states that require checking, and an occasionally over zealous checker in those same states. but very few will argue for abolishing recording requirements outright.
Recording has allowed us to achieve professional status in the eyes of the public and allowed us to weed out incompetent and unethical surveyors. Having fewer $500 surveyors to compete with allows for enough time to be spent on each boundary to provide a quality product. On a personal level, I feel pride in producing a product with my name on it that will?ÿ exist and be referred to 100 years from now.?ÿ
I feel the same pride, I tell my clients you can sleep better knowing my Cap is on your corner.?ÿ
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So in a recording State the fee for the Survey is more than a non recording state, but the difference in cost goes towards the filing fee is that correct?
The way everyone in a recording state talks about how great it is to go to the courthouse and get the last Survey, it does sound to me there is a lot of trust in that Survey.?ÿ You said you look at the Surveyors name if I trust him I use it, if not I tell the client to call that Surveyor. That does sound to be like blindy following.
What percentage would you say a new Survey is recorded that does not match the current recorded Survey, and don't include the reason a new Survey was recorded to reset a rod in the original location?
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Many recording states only require a nominal recording fee (approximately $20 a sheet).?ÿ The difference in fees, is the difference in not having to compete with as much incompetence, and providing a product of more value to the client.?ÿ
If the reason for the difference in a new survey is not given it is likely that the minimum standards have not been met. That would?ÿ almost defeat the entire purpose of recording a survey.
One thing I have noticed?ÿ is that it is seems to be a much bigger deal to disagree with a survey in a recording state. In a non recording state you may not even know that you are disagreeing with someone if the neighbor has a survey that you don't.?ÿ In a recording state both surveys are out there for every other surveyor to pass judgment on. You really need to make a strong case for your decision.?ÿ It takes more then, "that's not the way I would have done it" or "I measured that distance differently". It takes, "he was wrong", or "he made a blunder".?ÿ
I am going out for popcorn, who else needs some?
(BTW: you are being trolled again - I believe he may actually be smarter than he sounds, maybe)
So in a recording State the fee for the Survey is more than a non recording state, but the difference in cost goes towards the filing fee is that correct?
There is a cost of preparing the map.?ÿ The map needs to be fairly detailed, it takes some time to put together. Typically as much time as the field work took. So I need to get paid for that. Then there is a fee that the county charges to record the map.?ÿ And that's not trivial.?ÿ $400 in Multnomah County, for example. The client needs to pay that, of course. My wife doesn't like it when I do it.
The way everyone in a recording state talks about how great it is to go to the courthouse and get the last Survey, it does sound to me there is a lot of trust in that Survey.?ÿ
Trust? Not really that. There is simply information there about what was found, what was set, and the dimensions recorded.?ÿ
You said you look at the Surveyors name if I trust him I use it, if not I tell the client to call that Surveyor. That does sound to be like blindy following.
That's not what I said at all.?ÿ Just the opposite. If the surveyor is not a known screwup I suggest they just call him to have their corners found, or reset - by that surveyor. They don't need me repeating a lot of work. I trust that the other surveyor will do the same for me if the roles are reversed.?ÿ BTW - this "blindly following"?ÿ c r a p?ÿ is wearing thin.?ÿ
What percentage would you say a new Survey is recorded that does not match the current recorded Survey, and don't include the reason a new Survey was recorded to reset a rod in the original location?
Your sentence is a little broken up, I'm not completely certain I'm understanding your question here.?ÿ But surveys are usually done and recorded to restore missing monuments (remember, you only do a record when you set monuments) and not to challenge dimensions. The actual measured dimensions commonly differ from the record by no more than a few hundreths.?ÿ?ÿ
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Just a few random thoughts...
?ÿ ?ÿ1) Surveys at the time of purchase make good common sense from the perspective of the informed purchaser. Notice I said informed purchaser, this is why ALTA surveys exist and are required by lending authorities, to protect the interests of the lending institution (informed purchaser, since every lender is potentially the ultimate recipient of the subject property).
?ÿ ?ÿ2)Why get a new survey when there is 10 year old one on file? Same reason for a new title commitment, the old one can't reflect anything that has changed in the last 10 years including pertinent new?ÿ record documents and then there's the potential for the presence of newly constructed improvements that encroach on precluded areas.
3) Why should a survey that I have spent my hard earned money to have performed benefit any other individual, why is it not my property to enjoy and share the benefits of at my discretion.
Some of this probably just shows my ignorance of how things are done in recording states.
RRain
Just a few random thoughts...
?ÿ ?ÿ1) Surveys at the time of purchase make good common sense from the perspective of the informed purchaser. Notice I said informed purchaser, this is why ALTA surveys exist and are required by lending authorities, to protect the interests of the lending institution (informed purchaser, since every lender is potentially the ultimate recipient of the subject property).
?ÿ ?ÿ2)Why get a new survey when there is 10 year old one on file? Same reason for a new title commitment, the old one can't reflect anything that has changed in the last 10 years including pertinent new?ÿ record documents and then there's the potential for the presence of newly constructed improvements that encroach on precluded areas.
3) Why should a survey that I have spent my hard earned money to have performed benefit any other individual, why is it not my property to enjoy and share the benefits of at my discretion.
Some of this probably just shows my ignorance of how things are done in recording states.
RRain
1) the number 1 user of record surveys is Land Surveyors. If a member of the general public has a copy of a recorded survey chances are 999 out of 1000 that a surveyor gave it to them. This even though they are freely available on the internet.?ÿ
2) If someone has turned up new survey information in the intervening 10 years there is likely to be a public record of it. Otherwise this new information may never be known to the current surveyor.?ÿ
3) GLO plats are public record. Subdivision plats are public record. Deeds are public record. So surveys should be private? What is your justification for that? Every line of yours is also someone else's line. It's about getting it correct, not about grabbing and holding all you can.?ÿ?ÿ
I am going out for popcorn, who else needs some?
(BTW: you are being trolled again - I believe he may actually be smarter than he sounds, maybe)?ÿ?ÿ
I know. Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty, but the pig likes it.?ÿ
So in a recording State the fee for the Survey is more than a non recording state, but the difference in cost goes towards the filing fee is that correct?
There is a cost of preparing the map.?ÿ The map needs to be fairly detailed, it takes some time to put together. Typically as much time as the field work took. So I need to get paid for that. Then there is a fee that the county charges to record the map.?ÿ And that's not trivial.?ÿ $400 in Multnomah County, for example. The client needs to pay that, of course. My wife doesn't like it when I do it.
The way everyone in a recording state talks about how great it is to go to the courthouse and get the last Survey, it does sound to me there is a lot of trust in that Survey.?ÿ
Trust? Not really that. There is simply information there about what was found, what was set, and the dimensions recorded.?ÿ
You said you look at the Surveyors name if I trust him I use it, if not I tell the client to call that Surveyor. That does sound to be like blindy following.
That's not what I said at all.?ÿ Just the opposite. If the surveyor is not a known screwup I suggest they just call him to have their corners found, or reset - by that surveyor. They don't need me repeating a lot of work. I trust that the other surveyor will do the same for me if the roles are reversed.?ÿ BTW - this "blindly following"?ÿ c r a p?ÿ is wearing thin.?ÿ
What percentage would you say a new Survey is recorded that does not match the current recorded Survey, and don't include the reason a new Survey was recorded to reset a rod in the original location?
Your sentence is a little broken up, I'm not completely certain I'm understanding your question here.?ÿ But surveys are usually done and recorded to restore missing monuments (remember, you only do a record when you set monuments) and not to challenge dimensions. The actual measured dimensions commonly differ from the record by no more than a few hundreths.?ÿ?ÿ
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Norman,
?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿI apologize I did read where you pull the recorded Survey at the courthouse wrong. Thank you for clearing that up for me, and sorry about the broken sentence, I was typing while on the phone.?ÿ?ÿ
The lot isn't usually changing from owner to owner, so there's probably no need for a new survey plan, and a copy of the old one should suffice.?ÿ
What they really need is the corners set/recovered and the lines staked.
