I don't do a whole lot of residential surveys but I hate these situations.
By statute, I am required to set a reference corner, due to the storm manhole being on the corner.?ÿ In setting an offset, the only layman that would know it is an offset would be my friend.?ÿ Florida is a non recording state.?ÿ I have seen, on numerous occasions where an offset is used as an actual corner and fences are built in the wrong place.?ÿ Are we protecting the public with these types of offsets??ÿ If I set a large offset that can't be confused for the corner, the land owner can't use it to find the true corner location.?ÿ If I set straddles, the first corner the fence guy sees is where the fence goes.?ÿ If I prepare a detail, showing the rim position relative to the true corner he could establish the corner location.?ÿ Here locally I see lots of 2' offsets, seems to me that is how you create a boundary issue.?ÿ I will probably set a large offset.
What are your thoughts??ÿ On another note, I would love to see Florida become a recording state.
Charlie
I'd probably set reference corners on each line near the storm manhole.?ÿ Then I'd communicate with both lot owners to be sure that they understand that the actual corner falls on the manhole.?ÿ
?ÿ
Sometimes here we plat then construct and it leads to issues like the one you've shown.?ÿ I try to wait until subdivisions are complete before platting so I can handle this stuff on the front end and get the reference corners into the record.?ÿ We also have the ability to record a "Corrected Plat" within a reasonable time frame after the original to correct monument descriptions or other minor discrepancies that might crop up during construction.
I'm not sure what you're planning to use as a monument for your reference corner but the letters "WC" go a long way down here in Oklahoma.?ÿ Which BTW is not a recording state either.?ÿ You are so correct stating a witness or reference corner can very easily (and more often than not) be mistaken for the actual corner.
I read over Florida's Instructions for Corner Records and I did not see a mention of corners that are non-PLSS.?ÿ Oklahoma has stipulated that a Certified Corner Record need not necessarily be a PLSS corner.?ÿ We can file a Corner Reference on any corner we feel may help others retrace our survey.?ÿ If Florida doesn't allow that you might file a Corner Record on the closest controlling PLSS land corner an give ties to your reference or witness corner.?ÿ That might work better than just letting the rest of us guess at what the reference corner means.?ÿ I'm assuming land surveyors in Florida are probably just as bad at guessing as we are here in Okie Homie.?ÿ ??ÿ
This situation may call for a brass or aluminum cap whereby you could stamp a few words to convey its location.?ÿ
What do you guys mean by "recording state"?
I tend to set them on line and within a couple of feet because if they're not called for on the deed or plat the next guy may not be able to find them.?ÿ Manholes are tough because you need to balance the need to be close to the corner with the fact that if you're too close the next guy will never hear the separate signal on the magnetic locator.?ÿ If you can't get their positions into the record somehow, then you want to be sure that the next guy has a fighting chance to find them.?ÿ
I'd probably set reference corners on each line near the storm manhole.?ÿ Then I'd communicate with both lot owners to be sure that they understand that the actual corner falls on the manhole.?ÿ
That's what I would do also. I don't like setting witness's that are not on a boundary line. It may get used as something it isn't.
A HUGE problem. ?ÿNot having publicly accessible survey plats is a crime.
Allen- Others may be able to give you a better definition as I am not in a recording state but to me it means your survey becomes part of public record and anyone can access it.
Stephen- I understand your thought process about recovery and agree.?ÿ The part that always bothers me in a situation like a well controlled subdivision with no significant variances from record is that the pipe I set could become the problem.?ÿ Caps come off, become unreadable etc... is the absence of a pipe or a large POL offset (which to your point would probably never be found) harm the public more than a pipe that could be confused for the true corner?
Paden Cash-?ÿ I am not aware of anyway to file a corner record on?ÿ a non PLSS corner in Florida.?ÿ I think that would be very helpful though if we could.
Daniel- I think the alum/brass cap is a good idea, and very helpful for us surveyors.?ÿ Do you think landowners and fence builders read the caps??ÿ I am not sure if they do or don't.
The monument is supposed to stabilize the boundary, if in a stable area is an offset protecting or hurting??ÿ?ÿ
?ÿ
I'd probably set reference corners on each line near the storm manhole.?ÿ Then I'd communicate with both lot owners to be sure that they understand that the actual corner falls on the manhole.?ÿ
That's what I would do also. I don't like setting witness's that are not on a boundary line. It may get used as something it isn't.
I agree they should always be on line....what about when the corner gets cut because someone things it is a true corner.
holy cow-?ÿ It is my number one complaint with surveying in Florida.?ÿ In addition to hurting the public, I think it hurts the survey fees because there are so many bad surveys that people get away with
holy cow-?ÿ It is my number one complaint with surveying in Florida.?ÿ In addition to hurting the public, I think it hurts the survey fees because there are so many bad surveys that people get away with
I had one recently where I was the retracing surveyor. The left front corner fell on a manhole.?ÿ The plat didn't indicate an offset and the deed was a simple lot and block description.?ÿ I dug and probed a 2-3 foot band around the structure, then scanned up and down the line looking for offsets.?ÿ No luck on all fronts.?ÿ I didn't want to create confusion by setting one a couple of feet in either direction, so I extended the line to the street and set a nail in the edge of pavement exactly 20 feet from the front corner and called it out on my survey.?ÿ Not ideal, but it gives the owner a way to establish the side line with out creating confusion on the front line.
I like setting witness corners on boundary lines that are different than what I set for actual monuments and mentioning them in my property description that should find its way into a recorded deed.
This is not always possible and even when accomplished, relying upon the next surveyor that comes along to actually read your recorded description is not a certainty.
Be creative and make distinct references, calling for the distance of passing the rim of a manhole ring on entry and in leaving the manhole is just as locative as giving a distance to the back of curb along an extended line of the boundary.
In rural areas, setting reference monuments are easier than in busy metro areas where most everything is remade so frequently that in 6mos your monuments are history.
Power tools have brought about the ability to set monuments in the most difficult of places, such as in and under bridges, the bottom of a sewer inlet, bottom of body of waters and in the last place on earth you want to set foot.?ÿ It can be a dirty job.
One of my mentors used the difference of?ÿ your appearance and attitude from the beginning of the day and at the end of the day to determine your worth to his company.
WC with it stamped, a distance and an arrow minimum, it's best on both lines in your case. Witness corners are better cause they mark the line, all you need is the back monument and then extend the line, you don't need to figure out bearings and all that.
I will always try to set a witness on a town lot along the dividing line between two properties. At least then they have the line, I did one along the street once, caused all kinds of havoc, but with your situation that shouldn't be an issue since it isn't a point for a?ÿlot line.
Paden Cash-?ÿ I am not aware of anyway to file a corner record on?ÿ a non PLSS corner in Florida.?ÿ I think that would be very helpful though if we could.
?ÿ
?ÿ
Here's the verbiage in our statutes that make this possible (the hyperbole is mine):
Section 3-119. Public land survey corner records - filingA. A surveyor shall complete, sign and file with the Division a written record of the establishment or restoration of a public land survey corner. This record shall be known as a "public land survey corner record" and such a filing shall be made for every public land survey corner and accessory to such public land survey corner which is established, reestablished, monumented, remonumented, restored, rehabilitated, perpetuated or used as control in any survey. The survey information shall be filed within ninety (90) days after the survey is completed, unless the public land survey corner and its accessories are substantially, as described in an existing public land survey corner record, filed in accordance with the provisions of this act.
B. A surveyor may file or record any corner record as to any property corner, property controlling corner, reference monument or accessory to a corner.
C. The Board shall, by regulation, provide and prescribe the information which shall be necessary to be included in the public land survey corner record and the Board shall prescribe the form in which such public land survey corner record shall be presented and filed or recorded.
D. No corner record shall be filed or recorded unless it is signed by a land surveyor as defined herein, or in the case of an agency of the United States government, the certificate may be signed by the survey party chief making the survey.
You guys should lobby to get that one sentence added to your statutes.?ÿ It's not quite a public record of your survey but it could go a long way in preventing future confusion.
Allen- Others may be able to give you a better definition as I am not in a recording state but to me it means your survey becomes part of public record and anyone can access it.
How does it become part of the record though??ÿ Do you have to always file some kind of drawing that goes along with your field work?
If I felt the need for offsets and had?ÿa corner on a manhole lid or storm inlet grate I would only set offsets on line. That being said I would set 2 offsets for such a corner. Where a front corner is in a utility box, very common, or in a sidewalk a drill hole in the sidewalk is next on the list. If the corner point itself is inaccessible then a drill hole in the curb or iron pin against the back of the curb on an extension of the sideline is final choice.
I set them for following surveyors, there is no limit to what landowners might expect, so I plan for trained professionals.
Paul in PA
In addition can you cut a shallow line on the concrete of the manhole?
In addition can you cut a shallow line on the concrete of the manhole?
A cordless angle grinder could make light work of this. I bought mine for X's at actual locations that fall in concrete.?ÿ
And, just because you're state is 'non-recording' doesn't preclude you from recording, does it?
