I think an interesting topic emerged in JPH's post yesterday. Our hand written field notes are legal doc's, but which digital files and to what extent do we need to preserve them and for who? Are we the only ones that understand that kind of code contained in them? Most of my digital files get manipulated in one way or another in the office..........
> Our hand written field notes are legal doc's
I believe this is a common misconception. Field notes can be evidence of something, but rarely -- if ever -- proof of anything. In the absence their author, they may be sufficient evidence to convince a court to support a particular conclusion, even if they contain erasures. If the author is alive, their primary function in court is to assist his memory.
I was under that misconception ........same for digital files? just an aid?
"Records kept in the normal course of business" is what you should consider.
Shoot, a sketch on a napkin could become a legal document, and probably has in some instances!
Virtually anything is admissible in court. How it's introduced to the court, and by whom, is what matters. I would have no problem testifying to my field notes, if I happened to bring them 🙂
I signed a note with the bank almost a year ago. The contract was emailed to me and I was able to electronically sign it (after numerous acknowledgements giving my authorization) by either using their signature image or uploading one of my own.
I bet if I default on that loan, the Judge would consider that digital file a legal document.
I have also satisfied contracts with merely electronic submittals (no hard copy). Some had my digital signatures. I suppose those were legal documents, also.
3 years ago I performed a survey in conjunction with a law suit. My 'notes' and all referenced material was subpoenaed. I turned in copies of email correspondence, work orders, time sheets and final 'drawings'...all on a CD. Only once in the depositions did the defendant's (their side) attorney mention 'field books'. I pulled out the DC I had brought and layed it on the table. No more mention of 'field books' was made in the course of the proceedings.
I suppose legal is a relative term. There are existing laws that concern and govern an electronic signature in the business world. It's only a matter of time until we catch up.
Most, if not all documents have the potential to become "legal" documents, your notes, data, credit card receipts, even the check you mailed for your mortgage. Heck, there is even the theory out there that surveyors cannot write "legal" descriptions (I still haven't wrapped my head around that silly notion yet).
Your notes, data, drawings, maps, etc., are evidence of what you did and how you arrived at your professional opinion. I'd suggest keeping them - just in case.
I do not issues Legal Descriptions...
That is for a Liar (pronounced Lawyer). Mine are called Property Descriptions for the sole reason that I do not have a law license.
I do not issues Legal Descriptions...
> Mine are called Property Descriptions for the sole reason that I do not have a law license.
I don't eat at Legal Seafoods for the same reason.
A legal document.. what does it mean? Or shall we discuss "legally binding" documents?
That's the difference in terminology.
What sort of status does a "legal document" enjoy? Can it vote, get married, enter into contracts? Is it like a legal alien? Dumb phrase in my book.
It's not that difficult to speak clearly and correctly is it? LOL
I do not issues Legal Descriptions...
For my further education (which never seems to stop), could you please post the authoritative reference/case/statute/source that says that labeling my descriptions "legal descriptions" is an unauthorized practice of law?
I do not issue Legal Descriptions...
Mr. Allen,
I do not have case law. Just "buzz words" and practices based upon companies I have worked for recently. It sounded like good practice so I continued it.
If my memory serves, at a seminar a couple of years ago, the instructor mentioned that lawyers write legal descriptions and surveyors write property descriptions.
My Eighth Addition of Black's Law Dictionary states:
legal description. A formal description of real property, including a description of any part subject to an easement or reservation, complete enough that a particular piece of land can be located and identified. The description can be made by reference to a government survey, metes and bounds, or lot numbers of a recorded plat. -Also termed land description.
I have already ticked off enough lawyers. I did not want to provide them with any "ammo" of using the term "legal".
Definition of "Legal description"
according to my BLACK'S LAW DICTIONARY... which by the way is actually red:
Legal description. A description of real property by government survey, metes and bounds, or lot numbers of a recorded plat including a description of any portion thereof subject to an easement or reservation, if any. Such must be complete enough that a particular parcel of land can be located and identified.
Definition of "Legal description"
> Legal description. A description of real property by government survey, metes and bounds, or lot numbers of a recorded plat including a description of any portion thereof subject to an easement or reservation, if any. Such must be complete enough that a particular parcel of land can be located and identified.
So....if it doesn't meet that criteria, it's not legal :-S 😉
Definition of "Legal description"
The property description is a 'legal description' if it is a part of the deed of transfer. What did I buy? Well what you bought is described in the deed. I might write a property description, that is a result of my boundary survey, and that may or may not differ from the legal description of what is on your deed. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether it was authored by a lawyer in my opinion.
If I write a contract with someone, and we both sign it, it becomes the legal contract. If I write a contract and it doesn't get signed it is not the legal contract.
The property descriptions that don't become a part of a deed, are often called legal descriptions these days, because that is just what everyone has started to call them.
Definition of "Legal description"
> The property descriptions that don't become a part of a deed, are often called legal descriptions these days, because that is just what everyone has started to call them.
Well, not quite everyone. I've been titling them "descriptions" for over 30 years, whether part of a deed or not. Not "legal description" or "parcel description" or "land description," just plain old "description." Works for me.
Definition of "Legal description"
I call them "Land Descriptions", and have since the middle 1970s.
I do not issue Legal Descriptions...
> My Eighth Addition of Black's Law Dictionary states:
> legal description. A formal description of real property, including a description of any part subject to an easement or reservation, complete enough that a particular piece of land can be located and identified. The description can be made by reference to a government survey, metes and bounds, or lot numbers of a recorded plat. -Also termed land description.
>
Bryan,
Not to continue or start an argument, but there are many myths in our profession that I am finding which are not backed up by any authoritative source, in fact, many of these myths are proven to be incorrect when proper research and authorities are studied. One of my frustrations is that these myths are being passed on to the younger generation of surveyors, thereby continuing in many cases, incorrect procedures, methods, and application of the law. The perpetuation of myths are not only a great disservice to our profession, but the public in general.
I have heard this "legal" description argument for years and have yet to find any source of the myth or any support of it. In fact, the case law I have read uses the terms "description", "property description", "land description", and "legal description" interchangeably.
From your Black's cite, I guess "land description" is out too. 😉
Definition of "Legal description"
> The property description is a 'legal description' if it is a part of the deed of transfer. What did I buy? Well what you bought is described in the deed. I might write a property description, that is a result of my boundary survey, and that may or may not differ from the legal description of what is on your deed. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether it was authored by a lawyer in my opinion.
>
> If I write a contract with someone, and we both sign it, it becomes the legal contract. If I write a contract and it doesn't get signed it is not the legal contract.
>
> The property descriptions that don't become a part of a deed, are often called legal descriptions these days, because that is just what everyone has started to call them.
Well said :good::good:
Definition of "Legal description"
I do it similar. "Suggested Description - Brown to Blue", or something like that. I never know what the attorneys might add or subtract from it by the time it makes it into a deed and gets signed. I've had to point out in the past that they strayed from my suggestion, and the "legal description" in question is not my opinion of what it should have been.
I don't have any problem with anyone who wants to title it "legal description". I choose to allow myself room to distinguish my product from what the courts and attorneys commonly refer to as theirs. But, not sure it makes much difference.
