What would you do?

Work to pass a recording act in your state?

Is there a understanding of confidence amongst surveyors? It seems foreign to me that you would have to keep secret evidence used to make a professional determination.

If I hired a surveyor who surveyed my land and produced a plat for me, I would expect that he would show me the data used in making his decision.

I don't see a problem with giving him a copy of the plat. It's not public record, but apparently its not top secret stuff either. It almosts sounds like a person could reproduce the plat from the deeds.

> By the way, they were intended to be recorded. The deeds to those lots refer to the plats by surveyor and date. Deeds say see attached plat, the lawyer forgot to attach them :-/

When a deed reference another document, that reference brings the other document into the four corners of the deed. I don't know what you should do, but it seems to me that it somehow needs to be brought in to the public record so the general public is on notice of where that deed is.

You know that if the client gets a hold of that document, he will use it. It would be good if it could be obtained through a third party besides you. Maybe the first lawyers or whoever filed the deed needs to amend the deed to add the plat.

If the matter gets serious and ends up in court you will have to produce them. You have no claim of privilege.

When they were given to you were they given as a professional courtesy only? If so, give him a copy. If they were given on a condition of confidentiality, then I would respect that until I was forced to release them.

Either way you're in the dog house. Either with your client or the other surveyor.

> If the matter gets serious and ends up in court you will have to produce them. You have no claim of privilege.
>
> When they were given to you were they given as a professional courtesy only? If so, give him a copy. If they were given on a condition of confidentiality, then I would respect that until I was forced to release them.
>
> Either way you're in the dog house. Either with your client or the other surveyor.

I love this sort of question. Yes, even when I disagree with my friend Dave.

My first thought with this sort of dilemma is to put myself in the position of the other parties involved.

The other surveyor: I gave you those plats as a professional courtesy. As such I expect you to not share with others unless and until compelled by law. Ask me for something else next week and the answer is likely to be a big fat NO.

Your client: I paid you to do the research, that means I own the research and everything you did when you were being paid by me.

The other surveyors client: What the hell are you doing giving out information I paid you to gather? You are supposed to be looking out for me, your client. Now you are hurting me by helping this guy who wants to take my land. I'm going to sue you.

If you look at each argument, there are some pretty big holes. My client does not own my research. My client receives my professional opinion backed by monumentation and documentation that is presented to them at the time the arrangement was completed.

The other surveyors client is not the only person that surveyor has to protect. This is a fallacy that many (most?) clients have. We know our obligation is to protect the public and to be truthful and honest in all our dealings. But doesn't the client have at least some justification. How is helping his neighbor protecting "the public"? Isn't his client "the public" just as much as the neighbor?

(As a side note this is why I never refer to private plats or documents that are not a matter of public record.)

For me the other surveyor has the strongest argument. If someone gives me something out of professional courtesy, I do not share it without their express permission to do so. Let my client see the plat? Perhaps. But you can get into a problem with that even if they whip out a pen and start making notes and sketches from the plat.

Larry P

> > By the way, they were intended to be recorded. The deeds to those lots refer to the plats by surveyor and date. Deeds say see attached plat, the lawyer forgot to attach them :-/
>
> When a deed reference another document, that reference brings the other document into the four corners of the deed. I don't know what you should do, but it seems to me that it somehow needs to be brought in to the public record so the general public is on notice of where that deed is.
>
> You know that if the client gets a hold of that document, he will use it. It would be good if it could be obtained through a third party besides you. Maybe the first lawyers or whoever filed the deed needs to amend the deed to add the plat.

Agree with Tom. If the intent was to record the plat, it is time for the attorney to correct his or her mistake.

Larry P

> If the matter gets serious and ends up in court you will have to produce them. You have no claim of privilege.
>
> When they were given to you were they given as a professional courtesy only? If so, give him a copy. If they were given on a condition of confidentiality, then I would respect that until I was forced to release them.
>
> Either way you're in the dog house. Either with your client or the other surveyor.

We once gave a customer a copy of a different unrecorded plat done by this same surveyor. He then called us and said to never do it again. Ever since then, when he gives us a copy of one, he explains specifically not to give out copies.

Are you suggesting to refuse to show it until shown a subpoena?

> Are you suggesting to refuse to show it until shown a subpoena?

Are you aware of all the specific limitations that are associated with that original work? If not, I say the best course is to refer your client back to the source. If the other surveyor refuses a copy, then yes, I would not share short of a subpoena.

Larry P

Return the borrowed plat to the surveyor that loaned it to you for your use and review.

If you have shown the location of the other surveyor's monuments on your drawing, there is nothing more to be revealed.

The permission for your client to see the other surveyor's drawing lies in the hands of the other surveyor.

What gap is left over to be claimed?

The client's property is adjoined by another property.

I've had clients to not accept my survey and revert to a prior survey that was full of errors because it favored what they wanted.

😉

And as you said, "I love this type of question." I expected many varying answers. This has so many parameters to consider.

> If the intent was to record the plat, it is time for the attorney to correct his or her mistake.
>

That is good advice and I agree also. There's a complication to though. The attorney that drafted those deeds died a few months later. It was a small local firm. She was the only attorney in that office and had one secretary as a sole employee. The firm is now defunct. Correcting the mistake would mean hiring a new attorney.

I agree. The gap is not free land. The unrecorded plat is just in error. Our client has no reasonable claim it the under-lap. We retrace his lines by a 50 year old recorded plat to his property. The incorrect, unrecorded plats are only 6 years old. Also our clients parcel was created first historically. All senior rights imply that we are correct. He has no claim to cross our platted (and marked on the ground) line. But you know how it is trying to explain that to a client that wants extra 🙂
The "gap" is only about 0.02 acres. Coincidentally, he only needs 0.016 more acres to meet zoning requirements to split the lot adjoining this line. So, you see what he's angling for.

> Return the borrowed plat to the surveyor that loaned it to you for your use and review.

:good:

I like that idea. And be honest about everything. If the client ask you for a copy, tell them that the copy was loaned to out of professional courtesy and you returned it when you were done, so you wouldn't be in a position to have to betray his trust. You show your work on your plats, and state how you arrived to your conclusions, and it is on the other guy to deal with whether or not to share his sketches.

I am sure I'm not thinking of everything, but that is the best thing to do as far as I can think of.

Tom

> Work to pass a recording act in your state?
>

Big timber companies here in Virginia don't want that. Often surveys reveal that they have more acreage than their deeds say. They don't want to pay taxes on the difference. Apparently they spend more on lobbyist than surveyors do.

They could reproduce a good portion of the plats based on iron rods shown on our plat. We drew both line on ours. The one we honored in typical pen weight and the one we didn't lighter with a note saying "determined to be in error". We showed the courses on both.

Attorneys have a habit around here. They usually don't have written out metes. They are famous for something similar to the following:

"a tract of land containing 2.274 acres being bound on the north by Jones, on east by Smith, the south by Johnson and on the west by State Rte 555. As described on the attached plat by XXXXXX dated XX-XX-XXXX"

And then you turn the page and hope it's there. This forgetting to attach it is a common occurrence. Way to common among certain attorneys, more than one. Usually they are alive though and we can suggest a deed of correction or affidavit.

Geez, after reading this thread, I'm sure thankful Wisconsin is a recording/filing state. I hop online and within 15 minutes have copies of my lot and adjoiners. It's not perfect, but beats begging.

I like that idea best too. I hadn't thought of that. Then I don't have it, so the issue is gone. We didn't honor those lines anyway. If it gets as far as a court room, we only have to justify what we DID honor. That is easy enough and certainly can be done honestly and effectively.

As a side note we have already provided the client copies of all the other research. Everything recorded is in his possession and has been explained to him. He was also told why we made the decision we did. At the time of the survey he agreed with us and recorded our plat as his description. Now he has ulterior motives. I don't really agree with what he's attempting to do. It's an ethical issue, but I don't want to be wrong, in a legal sense, just to protect my morals.