Market forces:
Even after calculating overhead, profit margin, equipment costs, etc. and coming up with a price, the market may not bear the price I've determined. There will always be someone who can do the same work at less cost until the market reaches price/demand equilibrium.
Suppose I propose a price of $1000. Another surveyor proposes a price of $900 and wins the project. He left 10% on the table. Who is the better business person?
Well, let's check the score.
Revenue:
Tim V. PLS: $0.00
Other Surveyor: $900.00
Buy that measure, the other surveyor is the better business person.
Alright, you made me smile with that, but I still want to smash things.
It is a fact of life around here that folks tend to be land rich and cash poor so much so that it would seem they can't rub 2 nickels together. Quite often a family patriarch accumulated a lot of land by hook or by crook or by wheeling and dealing and frequently screwing others, I have seen it a lot and just as you said those with "the most money are the biggest skinflints". It is a source of constant amazement how someone can have hundreds of acres and not a dime in their pocket.
People have the money, and they can afford our services, it is us who do not understand the value of our services and continuously give it away for nothing.
CCR verse, and when the tax man comes to the door their house looks like a rummage sale.
The key things that a surveyor needs are not learned from construction work. In many states it does not even count as surveying experience.
Survey mentoring occurs on boundary survey projects, construction is merely training. Do not confuse the two.
Paul in PA?ÿ
I don't know a single surveyor that would complain about a 10% difference in fee's. I am routinely seeing myself and hearing from many other surveyors who has lost various proposals by differences in prices ranging from 30% to nearly 60% differences.
Let me give you a for instance; Earlier this year I was called by a fella in Acworth, Georgia to do a survey and stake his lines for a fence, it was a 34 acre lot partially wooded that would have required some line cutting and trimming. The record survey was not online so it would have required a trip to the court house in Canton, Georgia which is even further away. Now acworth is about 15 miles from me and the courthouse is about 45 minutes further away. I quoted the guy straight up $1000 with a few standard caveats.
A few days later I followed up with him and he had hired someone from Home Advisor, 2 hours away in Manchester, Georgia to drive to Acworth and do the survey for $350. Good for him, he saved a lot of money and I cannot blame him. But the fool for a surveyor had 4 hours of round trip driving time, assuming he does not encounter bad traffic (HE WILL) and he will then have to drive another 45 minutes to the courthouse. So all told this fella is gonna have 5 12 hours of driving to do a survey for $350 blasted bucks.
That is a good example of what I'm talking about. And I could give many more like that.
You certainly wouldn't fetch a grand for that task here but $350 by the out of town guy...that's just sad.
Although it may be a fortune to the other guy if he's been working under someone else for peanuts the last 15 years.
Are you serious, a 34 acre survey and line stake and you would not be able to get a $1000 for it.
Surely you're not serious! Where are you located because I darned sure don't want to survey there if it is that bad.
I truly did feel like $1k was a bargain but I know the area too, which you don't.
There's guys still doing boundaries for less than 50 cents per foot including cut/flag lines.
That's exactly why I rarely do boundary work except what is associated with subdivisions.
I often make more in one day than those guys make hacking briers for a week.
50 cents a foot and includes cutting out and flagging the lines is poverty level wages and makes my point perfectly. Unfortunately there are several here that do the same thing and guess what, they are mid to late 70's without a pot to p!$$ in and no retirement. It is a pathetic existence and they are the only ones to blame and I've got no sympathy for them.
If I can sustainably undercut all local competition and still provide a high quality product, no reason not to other than people will call me a lowballer?
It is a trap to go down that road thinking you will be able to capture your local market by being able to sustainably undercut your competition precisely because it is not sustainable. When you go down that road you will get more work but you will not have anything left when the bills are paid to invest back into your company to purchase new and better equipment, vehicles, software, computers, etc. and lets not forget about the pitiful employees who are the ones who suffer because of this fools folly of being the local low price leader.
Far too many have followed that path.
Revenue:
Tim V. PLS: $0.00
Other Surveyor: $900.00Buy that measure, the other surveyor is the better business person.
Sorry, I don't buy that measure.
If the job costs $950 to execute, who's the better business person?
The person who consumed their time and resources losing money or the person who spent that time on other productive activities?
Evaluating success by adding up gross revenue is a valid approach when... trick question - it NEVER is.
?ÿ
5 12 hours of driving to do a survey for $350 blasted bucks.... That is a good example of what I'm talking about.
Actually, it is entirely different from the $150g job estimate you were talking about. But it is a good example of what I was talking about. Clients like that will always seek to engage you in a race to the bottom. And they will always find willing partners. It's only a rat race if you run with rats. Find another group of clients.
Ok, your right about that but it was a decent example of your case.
Dismissal and division within the profession will only push all of us down.
The men and women out here helping build the buildings, bridges, highways and tunnels that make up this great nation do indeed have very much to contribute to the profession.
Some of the best and most capable guys I know are skilled in construction techniques and they make far far more money than any 2 licensed surveyors I know.
All we have to do is charge more money folks. There are not many of us so I truly cannot grasp the absolute and near total refusal or unwillingness to charge more. For gods sake you would think surveyors take a vow of poverty. I know I did not take a vow of poverty.
Across this nation and with very few exceptions if everybody here would charge just a little more every quarter it would slowly improve. Now to be fair many would have to double or triple their prices and those are the ones who are the highest priority.?ÿ
I think it is about more than rates and business acumen, it is about culture. Sometimes the money from higher rates just flows right on through a business without doing anything to improve practices and mentorship within.
You are right about the dismissal, but the division is real and shouldn't be ignored. Construction surveying and boundary surveying are really not similar at all. Being good at one is not preparation for the other.?ÿ They really should be regulated separately.?ÿ ?ÿ
Although, I wouldn't have phrased it the same way, Paul is right. Although it requires a lot of skill, construction surveying is a technical endeavor, and because of this, in some states it doesnt always require a land surveyor's licence. Boundary surveying requires some very basic technical competence ,?ÿ but is about professional judgment.?ÿ ?ÿThis is illustrated in the exam progression that most states use. The exam to become a trainee (FS), is the technical stuff, the exams to become a licensee are about professional judgment. The PS exam and most state specifics, don't cover much that is useful for a construction surveyor.?ÿ?ÿ
Upon reflection "dismissal and divisiveness" would have been better phrased.
I appreciate that there are discrete elements to boundary surveying, but maintain that there is enough commonality that we should approach our professional identity in unity, especially internally.
My boss is licensed in multiple states, holds multiple degrees and has studied geodesy in like three countries, I do not agree with the idea that there is no room for survey mentorship working with him because we happen to be mining a tunnel instead of doing a rural subdivision.
That land boundary research and analysis is not critical to the construction surveyor does not negate the massive amount of shared skill sets, ethics, and responsibilities.
The licensing stuff is a whole other can of worms, I am talking about how we approach each other and my genuine belief that we should try to unite; Field vs Office vs LS, Colonial vs Western vs Texas, Construction vs Boundary, are all groups that I have heard say the other was not "really surveying" and it really turns me off.
