Not sure how much I have shared about this before, but I filed a complaint against one of my coworkers for signing my boundary survey without my knowledge.?ÿ 5 years ago. Board finally got around to resolving it today. The ethics committee for TSPS Chapter 10 also filed a complaint. They found numerous violations, gave him a reprimand and an $18,000 fine.
I have also faced the board investigator. I pulled a warning and a $3k fine. But i made a mistake and i admitted it. To continue my story from the original post,?ÿ the investigator found 21 rule violations on the complaint submitted by chapter 10 and assessed a reprimand and fine of $40,000. Total bill, $58k. Did he set a record or have you heard of worse?
If he has no assets they probably won't be able to collect a penny unless your law's are substantially different than FL.?ÿ ?ÿ
That's by far the largest fine I've heard of.?ÿ ?????ÿ
I know of one where the Board's decision was that the surveyor refunds the clients advance monies and pay a fine of approximately $40k.
Given the opportunity, he chose to give up his license to practice and in return did not have to pay the fine. As I was told, he did pay back the clients their advance payments.
To become licensed again, he would have had to catch up with his CEUs that were missed and pay the fines plus the number of renewal fees and penalties for the period he had missed.
He chose to retire early.
Arkansas Land Surveyors Indicted on Charges of Price Fixing
This story represents a near complete miscarriage of justice.
Big fines. 60k apiece, by memory.
I actually donated to help them with the fines.
N
Miscarriage how? The article was sorta vague but it sounds like they got busted.
Miscarriage how??ÿ The article was sorta vague but it sounds like they got busted.
I remember when this all went down.?ÿ The impression I got was that there was a concerted effort to "standardize" services, fees and liability in a corner of the industry that was wrought with low-ballers and quicky-dicky surveys.?ÿ I can only imagine the public clientele suffered.?ÿ To read the charges and the records it made it sound like something sinister and nefarious was afoot and I don't believe it was.?ÿ I think it was just an effort to clean-up the low-ballers.?ÿ The fly in the ointment was that is the classic definition of price-fixing.?ÿ?ÿOops..?ÿ
In about '99 or so we elected a new (and somewhat young) president of our Oklahoma Society of Land Surveyors.?ÿ First thing out of the chute he got on a soapbox about the very same thing.?ÿ With the help of a few surveyors with more experience (and a collective memory) it was only a matter of hours before someone informed him of what a slippery (and expensive) slope he might find himself upon.?ÿ
There was no more talk of "standard" fees.
A similar thing happened in Ontario, Canada. I *believe* the firms were in the Kitchener area. They felt that, as a profession, they should be bound to a fee schedule similar to the Professional Engineers of Ontario (PEO). See below for what I'm talking about:
https://www.ospe.on.ca/public/documents/general/2015-fee-guideline.pdf
The problem was that their fees were, pretty much, all exactly the same. The client who called for quotes got the same quotes. They complained to the Province. The Province said that, as a profession, they were allowed to charge standardized rate. The client appealed to the Feds. They said it was price fixing. Suddenly, any talk of standardized fees on the AOLS website/docket was taken away and the profession was just happy they didn't suddenly have government involvement (ie. pharmacists of N.B. or engineers in B.C.)
https://www.egbc.ca/News/Articles/New-Governing-Legislation-For-Engineering-And-Geos
I, while having "switched streams" to engineering, still maintain good contact in the surveying world. The notices I receive all fall into the following categories:
1. John Smith, a great surveyor, has died.
2. We need more applicants.
3. There's 500 of us in the whole province--how do we maintain relevance?
The Fed court verdict spooked everyone and they were just happy to maintain the status quo.
Mistakes were made in Arkansas and every private sector surveyor across America took notice.
It is like "1st rule of Fight Club, you don't talk about Fight Club and so on and on" and "don't leave a paper trail".
I always heard that it all started out as them giving notice that Surveyors deserved a bigger piece of the pie chart.
Just as side note comparing engineers and surveyors:
When an engineering firm is selected as a consultant for a municipal design contract the fees are always based on a percentage of the estimated construction cost.?ÿ Meaning it doesn't really matter who gets the job, the fees will probably be the same.?ÿ How is that not price rigging??ÿ
BTW - The design survey for the very same project will probably be performed by the low bidder quote.
I recall the national engineers association got dinged with price fixing long before the arkansas surveyors. The difference is they evolved. Someone said I'm going to charge a certain percentage and others followed along, without any suggestion that they should or what the percentage should be. Same with real estate sales. Same with plumbers and the site visit charge and hourly charges.
You can share your billing procedures, but can't suggest others do a same or similar procedure. Can't stop them from doing what you do either.
Surveyors have not evolved. They don't teach proper business practices to apprentices in the schools or in the on the job training. Secrecy prevails. Theoretically this is good for consumers as they can get a 10k job for 1k. In reality, it is causing lawsuits that shouldn't be, that cost much more to consumers than a good job done for a reasonable fee.
The biggest challenge to the profession is figuring out how to charge a reasonable fee without price fixing. That's the only way to sustain membership of quality folks and entice bright/intelligent newcomers into the field.
Just as side note comparing engineers and surveyors:
When an engineering firm is selected as a consultant for a municipal design contract the fees are always based on a percentage of the estimated construction cost.?ÿ Meaning it doesn't really matter who gets the job, the fees will probably be the same.?ÿ How is that not price rigging??ÿ
BTW - The design survey for the very same project will probably be performed by the low
bidderquote.?ÿ
Not in this neck of the woods.?ÿ Municipalities are restricted from contracting professional services based on cost.?ÿ It is qualification based across the board.?ÿ If the most qualified and the municipality cannot come to an agreement on the price they move to the next most qualified and so on.
So if the municipal budget is tight, they just "can't come to an agreement" with any of the contractors except the lowest price one?
They were small guys trying to eke out a living so of course they were fair game.
Bankers tanking the entire world economy, well you see that there is a different thing, not the same at all.
The way my former employer did it: no. 1 selection is asked for a quote. If too high, no. 2 is asked, if higher we are stuck (can't go back to no. 1). So there is some risk for going to the next selection.
Practicioners have to care and their clients need to know enough to know it matters, not just taking pictures with the camera scope that any trained monkey can do.
We need a Lawyer for a family related matter (not a law suit but needs counsel, legal work, need someone who knows what they are doing).?ÿ Get a referral from a Lawyer friend (who doesn't practice in this area).?ÿ Talk to that guy.?ÿ After agreeing he is the guy, he requires $XXXX retainer, probably can get it done for that but can't say for 100% sure.?ÿ That's it.?ÿ No use calling around trying to get $XXXX done for $XXX.?ÿ Low guy might ball it up anyway and we don't want that to happen, too important.
So if the municipal budget is tight, they just "can't come to an agreement" with any of the contractors except the lowest price one?
We are not contractors, we provide professional services.?ÿ We win a lot and charge a lot and have never been passed over by any municipality because the price is to high.?ÿ?ÿ
