What Does This Note Mean?

> > Bionicman,
> >
> > What is the identity that makes a monument correct?
> >
> > What is evidence to impeach a monument?
> >
> > Stephen
>
> The basic question is "what makes a monument controlling?"
>
> The answer is found in the law, not on your data collector or computer screen.

:good:

The annotations on the drawing reveal there is a conflict between the paper evidence and that on the ground. It may be true the client wanted his corners placed and that is why the surveyor was contracted, the surveor in turn responded by implication that in his opinion, a conclusion of certainty could not be reached.

Even though mathematics may have been employed to convert description dimensions to coordinates, "this" issue does not have anything to do with mathematics. The mathematics, ruling out errors, is sound. It is the dimensions and measurements that are at issue. Possibly, the dimensions on the plat or in the description are in error, the measurements made were in error or there is a combination of dimension and measurement errors. The discipline of mathematics is the tool used for comparing dimensions with measurements. There is nothing wrong or in error with the tool, but there certainly can be error in dimensions and measurements!

Just because the client wanted a "certain" result does not mean the surveyor has to produce that "certain" result. It is incumbent upon the surveyor to state the truth. If the surveyor can not, with the information he has obtained, reach a conclusion, he must inform his client. The annotations on the drawing not only reveal that but, also, they reveal the degree of uncertainty in position. By implication, those desiring "certainty" are put on notice that more evidence is needed.

A tangential issue:
"Calc" is, in my opinion, a poor term to use. It may be factual the sixteenth corner position was calculated, but the calculations are only the mathematical process used to determine the position from the description or plat dimensions. One way, perhaps not the "best," would be to state that "the monument found is 0.45 feet north and 0.21 feet west of the sixteenth corner position determined from description dimensions and other relevant evidence."

As a surveyor, you should consider what the landowner or contractor is going to use if a fence or building is going to be built - a physical monument, or a mathematical location noted on your plat. If the structure gets built in the wrong location are you liable or does your mathematical computed location noted on your plat cover your a$$?

This "procedure" is designed to avoid any risk of making a decision. With this dodge, they leave it to others to decide on their own where to dig the post hole.

I knew one who would drive a pin/cap sub surface in pasture, then tie a lath marked Prop Cor to the fence post over there. Such fine details always escape the map notes.

It's leaving open deniability of what the map means. If any claim is made against his non-decision the reply is, I didn't certify where to put the post. I let you decide where you want it. Your decision, not mine, your liability, not mine.

Gee, do the errors and emissions agents advise this process as a risk avoidance norm??

Let's see, 50 states, 50 BOR's. Have any banned this practice? I have seen some of this in all the Western states.

> My reading of this is that he is calling the monument off.

In at least one County in Kalifornia, the County Surveyor's ROS instruction manual directs the surveyor to reject monuments using exactly that format:

"Monuments “found” and not accepted will be labeled with bearing and distance from true corner."

I don't disagree with that note. What I disagree with is not accepting the monument in the first place.

If our boards were truly regulating the profession, anyone using a note like that would get their license suspended. However, unless that fellow left off a bar scale or the vicinity map, any horse excrement methods he used are fine and dandy.

It means that guy is an idiot.

I agree, this is a knuckleheaded maneuver.

I had one where my boss told me not to set a pincushion, just show fallings. I said if it's the corner, why not draw the line and dimension to the monument, duh? If it isn't the corner then monument the actual corner. This seems so basic but our training can get in the way of good sense.

I found a section corner monument that appears to be "off" 7'. It is a 4x4 concrete monument up 2' (be careful not to break your knee cap on it) set by double proportion in 1963. 2' in a mile is more typical of the 1960s transit and tape work in the area; 7' is a little wide of the usual mark. This is near the bottom of a gulch, redwood country. There are three k-tags on nearby large trees. These have cruiser initials and dates on them.

I think Surveyors forget other professionals and lay people use our monuments or maybe they don't care.

My heavy line and dimensions will go to the monument, not some imaginary point in space. If I felt justified in rejecting the monument (very doubtful I will) then I would set another large monument clearly and obviously marked. The Foresters need the boundary marked, not imaginary points and lines on the map.

Don't hold back, Kris.

Be respectful, "Professional Idiot."

That note means that that surveyor can measure better than the surveyor that came before him because he has 'GPS' and other fancy high tech gadgets, consequently his measurements far superior to all those that came before him using transits and chains. Yep, what Kris said.

FOUND 5/8" REBAR AND CAP LS xxxxx 0.45 NORTH AND 0.21 WEST OF CALC. 1/16 CORNER

Relative to what? What is your base. Pick any two corners on the same survey as your basis and you will have a different answer. Ok so you produce an algorithm to best match the tract description to the field survey. So naturally, the best fit is the best answer. So a four way property corner marked by a monument now has five possible locations depending on for whom you are doing the survey. Four that are mathematical and one that is physical. Now all we need is a Client who is building a virtual project and we are all set. Now we can change our names to Virtual Land Surveyor VLS. Sometime I miss Latitudes and Departures on the old Comp Sheet. We simply did not have time for such foolishness. VLS Land Surveyors "Where all our intelligence is artificial"

> Be respectful, "Professional Idiot."

The classic case of being "outstanding in the field", which is where this goofball should stay

Stephen,

There is no checklist or blanket answer to your questions. The type of corner and the related evidence create the identity. If I find an undisturbed original GLO monument (or sufficient accessories to restore it) it is correct. If I find a monument set in conflict with records, other monuments and long standing possession I'm likely to reject it. Then there is the other 99.9% that fall in between and can't be adequately described on a thread. Bottom line for me is that 'correct' is not determined by a distance from my idea of where the corner should have been placed.
As for impeachment, again the situations vary widely. On one recent survey I found pins set at proportioned locations. The Surveyor ignored several controlling monuments of record from the late 1800's. His corner math was awesome, were it not for the original instructions, the Plat and 100 plus years of monuments and occupation. I called him wrong and don't feel the least bit bad about it. The same principal applies. I don't care that he only moved the Lot Corner 0.6'. He intentionally departed from the manner of Plat creation and blew off original monuments. Impeached.
While there is value in breaking things out to see how they fit, let's use that information properly. Let it guide you to look for more evidence. Follow the footsteps and the law.
If there is peace in the neighborhood when you get there, let there be peace when you leave... My .02, Tom

> While there is value in breaking things out to see how they fit, let's use that information properly. Let it guide you to look for more evidence. Follow the footsteps and the law.
> If there is peace in the neighborhood when you get there, let there be peace when you leave...

Words well spoken Tom. Nothing worse that going to set a monument and finding one there that is in conflict with your chosen location. Ideally, they'd be the same. Sometimes that just is not the case, forcing us to back up and re-think things AKA - likely lose money.

I think key to your synopsis is "let it guide you to look for more evidence. Follow the footsteps and the law". Along with your closing sentence.

Ha, it means that you jump up and down with joy because you have two independent surveys that agree spot on with each other and you can accept an 1/16 corner monument and not have to breakdown the section;-)

But you better go out and look, cause there might be an older one a few feet away:-(