Are both persons of the same thinking that it is the adjoining persons fence? Not built when mama owned both parcels? All kinds of scenario s . Just did one today that has back and forth for 6 weeks. Hopefully they will be satisfied. I would bet one heir on one side, there are 5, is going to pitch a hissy as my granny used to say. Pay the tab and we will try something different.
No, they only need legal advice from an attorney if the surveyor fails (not neccesarily the surveyors fault). We are the land boundary professionals. That is why the attorneys come to us?ÿ for boundary advice.?ÿ
In the original scenario, if your first response is to call in the attorneys, you have failed your client. The attorneys only need be involved if neither party will listen to reason and possible solutions and require a judge to force a solution on them. It does happen, but not as often as it would if we call the attorneys as soon as our measurements don't match the reality.?ÿ?ÿ
I tell them if the fence is 10 feet on your property it's your fence. If it's 10 feet on the neighbor's property it's his fence. If the fence I exactly on the property line it's both of yours.
@holy-cow. “Are TWO very....”. YES !!!! YES!!!! Rankin FILE FOR THE WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@holy-cow more seriously- is this the project you were mentioning a while back that involved the Brow of the hill something or other....
I tell them 2 separate things.?ÿ
First is the survey issues. And if I'm really 99.9% sure I don't get into the 0.1 % possibility. That adds confusion. If I'm only 95% sure, then sure tell them about the 5%.?ÿ
Second, what to do about it. Tell them what other people have done, and what can go wrong. I tell them resolving it is more of a legal problem than a surveying problem.?ÿ
Equal area exchange is my typical solution. Sometimes this is not possible, so I'll explain to my client other options and ask permission to show the results of the survey with the neighbor. I'm quick to suggest that the neighbor get his own survey. If the two parties are somewhat agreeable I try to explain all the pros and cons of easements, doing nothing, purchasing the strip etc. Loss of acreage can greatly affect the sale price of small lots, fences are expensive. I try to make both parties understand the monetary impact of the problem.
If the neighbors hate each other and refuse all options, then and only then do I suggest involving attorneys.
Eye em sew hapy two mayk yore dey.?ÿ?ÿ
Thanks.?ÿ I needed that.?ÿ One must learn to accept as well as dish out.?ÿ Truthfully, I appreciate having such errors pointed out as it helps to keep me more observant of my own work.
FYI?ÿ ?ÿOnly hapy, mayk and dey were underlined for possible correction by the automatic spellcheck here.?ÿ Somehow, em is just fine.
Thank you, everyone, for all the great responses! I really appreciate all the input from all over the world.
This is fairly common, around here, and I always struggle with what to do. Every case is different and it's difficult to foresee what out come your advice will bring. I know that I'm not an attorney and that giving advice is a bad idea. But that's difficult to do, when they say; what should I do? I tell them I give my advice away for free, but then you get what you pay for. I've had clients in similar situations that ended up giving the neighbor the property and 10's of thousands of dollars! I really try to avoid that and tell them to avoid hiring an attorney, if at all possible. I know that we are only there to find the facts; but in the words of one poster, from a long time ago; if not the surveyor, then who?
In this situation, I believe Mark Mayer has the best suggestion; send the neighbor a letter, with a copy of the survey attached, and let them know the client's intentions.
Wish me luck!
Dougie
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No. Different job about 10 miles from the other. In the "brow" job the section lines were the easy part. The crappy wording and some calls lacking dimensions to even allow one to make a guess as to intent were the primary concerns.
On the current job the terrain was the leading factor in the fence not being in a straight line. Both end points were off line some distance to the east of the section line. One thought was that perhaps there had been a county road centered on the section line at one time but vacated many years ago. Both counties involved have good records as to road openings and vacations. One county showed no road along that mile while the other had received an application for a road opening a few months after the 1900 survey but that file was clearly marked "REJECTED". Perhaps there had been a crude driveway along that route the locals had hoped the county would agree to upgrade. We did find remnants of a culvert that had been constructed of laidup stones that would have been adequate in the horse and buggy days. It was very close to being centered on the section line. Both adjoining farms are rough cattle and hay ground only so there should have been evidence of a second fence somewhat parallel to the one found but along the west side of the section line. No such evidence was found.
I'm working on one right now that may lead to my not accepting a recently determined location for a section corner.?ÿ One relatively straight fence points towards a location about 60 feet east of the current determined location.?ÿ A recorded agreement on a different fence suggests the section corner should be six feet south of the west end of an existing fence but the determined location is twelve feet north?ÿ and 50 feet west of that spot.?ÿ The determined location does not agree with two rare topo calls in the Field Notes but are subject to interpretation due to possible movement of a stream.
If I simply grab the current location there will be a triangle of land a half mile long by 60 feet on the end.
why are you an attorney also? im not saying you cant resolve the situation by performing a survey service just that once the fence is found to be over the line you client needs legal advice
No, they only need legal advice from an attorney if the surveyor fails (not neccesarily the surveyors fault). We are the land boundary professionals. That is why the attorneys come to us?ÿ for boundary advice.?ÿ
The surveyor has performed a professional service once the boundary is established on the ground and documentation of its relationship to the improvements (and any other locatable items, servitudes, etc. as specified in the contract) is delivered to the client. That is quite literally the professional land surveyor's duty to the public.
Saying the surveyor has failed at this point is just incorrect.?ÿOur professional opinion based upon the evidence may assist in resolving title issues, but we are rarely (I would venture to say never) required by law to "fix" the "problem" for the client by default.
Depending on what state you are in, the landowners may have the option of performing a boundary line adjustment (or equivalent). If the landowner has questions about the survey, we can answer them and suggest some possible courses of action based upon our experience. If there is not enough information, or if there is a separate issue causing a rift between landowners, or anything else not related to physical location of the boundary, means that there is a decent chance that someone else might have to be brought in to examine the case - that is, elements not pertaining to the location of the boundary, i.e. title. Calling in another professional does not mean we are shirking our duty. Acknowledging the limits of our expertise (and our license) and knowing when to reach out to experts in other areas is the mark of a true professional.
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Honestly, I don't understand why land surveyors continually scream at the public that they should be hiring a surveyor, yet when it comes to legal matters they turn around and screech about bloodsucking lawyers and how they should never be brought in to fix the problems that they, the lawyers, have been educated, trained and certified to resolve. We complain all the time about lawyers not staying in their lane when they enter our field of expertise; it would behoove us to look in the mirror once in a while.
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why are you an attorney also? im not saying you cant resolve the situation by performing a survey service just that once the fence is found to be over the line you client needs legal advice
I disagree. If the client informs the neighbor of the 10 feet and of his intent to move the fence, and the neighbor does not object, what do they need a lawyer for??ÿ
Honestly, I don't understand...
Because the outcome will be the same; without your client spending 10's of thousands of dollars! I don't necessarily want to take money out of attorney's pockets' but my client's are forever grateful, if I can save them a butt load of money...
If it comes to that (spending all that money) it's not about the line, it's never about the line; it's always about some disagreement or conflict and the line is just a way to "get back at them"
If that's the way it is, I try to stay out of it; I try to discourage it, but that's the best I can do, at that point.
In this situation, I believe Mark Mayer has the best suggestion; send the neighbor a letter, with a copy of the survey attached, and let them know the client's intentions
Giving out your clients survey without their permission could open you up to all kinds of legal issues.
Giving out your clients survey without their permission could open you up to all kinds of legal issues.
It's partial survey of the adjoiner, too.?ÿ That should entitle them to see it.?ÿ Darn non-recording states.
Not sure what you are disagreeing about. In your statement you say the CLIENT informs the neighbor and they move the fence. No problem there, it's their issue to resolve how and when they want.
Yes we can assist in that effort as surveyors.
My comments are on surveyors offering legal advice on how to resolve the situation when they are not licensed to do such. I think they are opening themselves to a boat load of liability they don't need to. I suggest they contact their E&O carriers and ask if they are covered for rendering legal advice on how to resolve a boundary issue.
... once the fence is found to be over the line you client needs legal advice.
Just that. There may be a point when legal advice is appropriate, but not right out of the box.
It seems I remember reading on here in the past that certain States insist the work being done for the client is for the client's eyes only.?ÿ Would appreciate hearing from anyone in one of those States.?ÿ Apparently, the surveyor can be sued for damages if anyone else learns of issues concerning the tract surveyed.?ÿ That is completely bassackwards to working in a recording State.
Washington is a recording state, my survey will be part of the public record.
And I will not be doing anything, more than our original agreement, without a new agreement with my client.