What are differences between PLSS and non-PLSS systems?

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Tom Adams, post: 441180, member: 7285 wrote: What I don't understand is, in the M&B states, is why don't you just read the description and set the corners? It isn't rocket science. True that simple squares are a more simplistic geometric figure, but with computers and programmable calculators, you can run the math easily, and generate coordinates. Hell, back in the day, I could run coordinates in a flash with my hp48 and now technology is even more advanced. You can even run a least squares evaluation with the push of a button. And how could researching chain of title be any more difficult than in the PLSSia states? In fact without section corners, you don't have to worry about finding the original government monument or worry about discrepancies. In PLSSia we have both M&B and sections. Sometimes they are combined so that you have to locate an original section corner and run coordinates around a M&B description. If you can work in PLSSia, everything else is childsplay.

Tom,

Congratulations on stepping up your game. In Metes and Bounds we do read the current legal description and look for the property corners, if we do not find them we reset the corners. We also read all of the deeds for the adjoining tracts, and the deeds for those adjoining tracts and look for all of those property corners as well. We also need to determine which tract is the Senior tract and which is the Junior tract, in Texas you also have to determine which Sovereign Nation made the land Grant the tract is out of and follow the Laws of that Sovereign Nation at the time the Land was Granted. You must also know court case law to help determine the Boundary. None of this is in one book, or in a list of step by step instructions. You must also make sure the land Grant does not over lay another Land Grant. Then you need to write a legal description telling where the tract is, what corners you found or set, where to find all of the recording information for the adjoining tracts. There is no grid where you can just pick a point and start with an already existing monument like in PLSS.

Surveying in PLSS would only be childsplay if the child knows how to read and follow step by step instructions and can draw a square. I heard it is so easy they even let Engineers survey in PLSS States.

Scott Ellis, post: 441183, member: 7154 wrote: Tom,

Congratulations on stepping up your game. In Metes and Bounds we do read the current legal description and look for the property corners, if we do not find them we reset the corners.

Yes, just like you do in PLSSia.

We also read all of the deeds for the adjoining tracts, and the deeds for those adjoining tracts and look for all of those property corners as well. We also need to determine which tract is the Senior tract and which is the Junior tract,

Oh, yes.....kind of like you do in PLSSia

in Texas you also have to determine which Sovereign Nation made the land Grant the tract is out of and follow the Laws of that Sovereign Nation at the time the Land was Granted.

Sounds easy enough....but don't you think you need to honor the senior and junior tract anyway, for the parcels that have entered into private ownership, and follow texas laws and case law to determine ownership. You might let us know how the land grant origin affects the private property owners boundary.

You must also know court case law to help determine the Boundary. None of this is in one book, or in a list of step by step instructions.

Again just as in every state usa.

You must also make sure the land Grant does not over lay another Land Grant.

But of course. Again you want to know Jr. Sr. rights

Then you need to write a legal description telling where the tract is, what corners you found or set, where to find all of the recording information for the adjoining tracts.

The legal description is the description on the deed. Maybe you are referring to the surveyor's notes (or whatever they're called down there) that you put on your plat. That doesn't over-rule the legal description for the property. It might be come a new legal description if the property is transferred, but that is up to the writer of the deed I would think. We have the same thing in Colorado on our Survey plats which the statute law calls for a "property description" that shoudl state the exact same think you refer to above.

There is no grid where you can just pick a point and start with an already existing monument like in PLSS.

Yes, that is the only thing we have that makes the PLSSia States more complicated. We have to find or re-establish the "grid" points that sometimes haven't been recovered for over 100 years or since they were originally set.

Surveying in PLSS would only be childsplay if the child knows how to read and follow step by step instructions and can draw a square. I heard it is so easy they even let Engineers survey in PLSS States.

See above. If you hear of an Engineer surveying in the PLSS States please let us know. Like Texas surveyors, they think they are superior to everyone else, but they would need a license to do land surveying in that State or they are breaking the law as would a Texas Surveyor trying to survey in PLSSia.

I'm glad you broke down the "extra" work you do down there. Once you learn the nuances of the PLSS system, you'll be close to being able to survey in PLSSia.

Scott Ellis, post: 441161, member: 7154 wrote: We have had a few Presidents of the United States from Texas, and none of them have made Chinese or Russian the official language of the United States.

One of them I remember actually struggled with English....

paden cash, post: 441197, member: 20 wrote: One of them I remember actually struggled with English....

Just don't let that lead you to misunderestimate him

thebionicman, post: 441198, member: 8136 wrote: Just don't let that lead you to misunderestimate him

...especially today in these "nook-ya-lur" times.

Tom Adams, post: 441191, member: 7285 wrote: Yes, just like you do in PLSSia.

Oh, yes.....kind of like you do in PLSSia

Sounds easy enough....but don't you think you need to honor the senior and junior tract anyway, for the parcels that have entered into private ownership, and follow texas laws and case law to determine ownership. You might let us know how the land grant origin affects the private property owners boundary.

Again just as in every state usa.

But of course. Again you want to know Jr. Sr. rights

The legal description is the description on the deed. Maybe you are referring to the surveyor's notes (or whatever they're called down there) that you put on your plat. That doesn't over-rule the legal description for the property. It might be come a new legal description if the property is transferred, but that is up to the writer of the deed I would think. We have the same thing in Colorado on our Survey plats which the statute law calls for a "property description" that shoudl state the exact same think you refer to above.

Yes, that is the only thing we have that makes the PLSSia States more complicated. We have to find or re-establish the "grid" points that sometimes haven't been recovered for over 100 years or since they were originally set.

See above. If you hear of an Engineer surveying in the PLSS States please let us know. Like Texas surveyors, they think they are superior to everyone else, but they would need a license to do land surveying in that State or they are breaking the law as would a Texas Surveyor trying to survey in PLSSia.

I'm glad you broke down the "extra" work you do down there. Once you learn the nuances of the PLSS system, you'll be close to being able to survey in PLSSia.

I just drew a 36 squares in Grid, none of them are the same, now I am just waiting for my PLSS License to come in the mail.

I was just reading on Wikipedia about the PLSS System. I was not surprised when it said this system is to difficult for PLSS surveyors to understand or gasp. I can see why the System is childsplay that always have nice colorful maps, and big easy to read numbers in order. If you can count and color you can be a PLSS Surveyor

paden cash, post: 441197, member: 20 wrote: One of them I remember actually struggled with English....

He was from Connecticut.

There are plenty of reasons to ridicule Texas without blaming them for yankee immigrants.

Humans are the only species that has the arrogance to think we can "own" land. The whole setup is an artificial social contract which we call "laws." Some few of us are specially qualified to show people the limits of what they supposedly own so they can put up 8' game fences to keep the wildlife off of their supposed ownership.

Dave Karoly, post: 441243, member: 94 wrote: Humans are the only species that has the arrogance to think we can "own" land. The whole setup is an artificial social contract which we call "laws." Some few of us are specially qualified to show people the limits of what they supposedly own so they can put up 8' game fences to keep the wildlife off of their supposed ownership.

Have you been working downwind of an "agricultural" fire in Humboldt County again?

Kent McMillan, post: 440519, member: 3 wrote: Typical means commonly expected. You could probably assign a chance or frequency of occurence to a typical PLSS township. An easy way to do that would be to randomly sample various states, starting with Iowa and Kansas, and working West to see what the relative frequency of occurrence of standard PLSS townships is.

I would assign that frequency of occurrence at 0.005%. I have been surveying int the good ole PLSS for most of my career and have not encountered a "typical" township yet.

James Fleming, post: 441247, member: 136 wrote: Have you been working downwind of an "agricultural" fire in Humboldt County again?

Without the nobility how will the peasants have any land to farm?

Holy Cow, post: 441156, member: 50 wrote: You should have used sarcasm font for that, Tom.

No one will ever convince me that the contractors working in this region had a solar compass and actually used it if they did.

The closest thing to a square is a case of some dumb@$$ modern surveyor ignoring all worthwhile evidence, finding or setting the four section corners and then doing math for everything else assuming half distance and on line everywhere. We all know that is fictional.

All sections but the North and West Tiers were staked out square 80 X 80 chains. The original surveys are considered to be without error. So how can you say that none of them are square? (maybe I need a smiley-face but on the other hand, it's kind of true.)

Tom Adams, post: 441270, member: 7285 wrote: All sections but the North and West Tiers were staked out square 80 X 80 chains. The original surveys are considered to be without error. So how can you say that none of them are square? (maybe I need a smiley-face but on the other hand, it's kind of true.)

Tom Adams, post: 441270, member: 7285 wrote: All sections but the North and West Tiers were staked out square 80 X 80 chains. The original surveys are considered to be without error. So how can you say that none of them are square? (maybe I need a smiley-face but on the other hand, it's kind of true.)

The Sections are exactly the size, shape, and area shown on the Plat.

The insight is a parcel can be a size and shape as a question of law and a different size and shape in fact (as found by the latest survey).

Nope. Most of our east-west lines have distances of 79.95 or 80.14 chains based on whatever they measured. Only the liars reported 80. The 80's are largely only along range lines and township lines. The some brilliant sorts actually believe all east-west lines are curved from the get-go so the idea the sections are square is debatable by that fact alone.

Holy Cow, post: 441297, member: 50 wrote: Nope. Most of our east-west lines have distances of 79.95 or 80.14 chains based on whatever they measured. Only the liars reported 80. The 80's are largely only along range lines and township lines. The some brilliant sorts actually believe all east-west lines are curved from the get-go so the idea the sections are square is debatable by that fact alone.

Makes me wonder if two bearings on opposite sides of a Texas parcel reported as the same bearing are really parallel? Of course in our simple world of the original rectangular survey they are not...but I'm sure I'm not smart enough to talk intelligently about it.

paden cash, post: 441199, member: 20 wrote: ...especially today in these "nook-ya-lur" times.

Now that there's FUNNY!