This is what we have to work with here in Ireland as our cadastre. This is an extract direct from the property registration authority guidelines.
"2. Mapping of Title Boundaries:
2.1 The boundary system adopted under the Registration of Title Act, 1964 (ÛÏthe Act of 1964Û)
is known as a non-conclusive boundary system. The non-conclusive provision dispenses
with the need for determining the exact location of title boundaries when defining the
extent of registered properties and the ownership of the physical features which mark the
limits of a property is left undetermined. In the case of boundaries located within
buildings, the exact line or plane of the title boundary is also left undetermined. (See
Section 85 of the Act of 1964 as substituted by section 62 of the Registration of Deeds and
Title Act 2006 (ÛÏthe Act of 2006Û).
2.2 The non-conclusive boundary system will not indicate whether a title boundary includes a
hedge or a wall and ditch or runs along the centre of a wall or fence or runs along its inner
or outer face or how far it runs within or without it or whether or not the land registered
includes the whole or any portion of an adjoining road or stream. However, the location of
the physical features within which the title boundary lies or the points between which an
undefined title boundary runs must be accurately defined on the application map."
How is a Land Surveyor supposed to work with a system like this? The amount of problems this causes here is ridiculous. What's the point of a registration authority if you can't conclusively register a boundary? Surveyors here would love a system like you have in the U.S.
Is that fair dinkum? Or is that an Irish surveying joke?
Sounds like Raffety's rules. Anything goes
Richard, post: 389513, member: 833 wrote: Is that fair dinkum? Or is that an Irish surveying joke?
Sounds like Raffety's rules. Anything goes
Unfortunately it's not a joke this is the way it works. Anything goes describes it accurately.
Totalsurv, post: 389515, member: 8202 wrote: Unfortunately it's not a joke this is the way it works. Anything goes describes it accurately.
Sounds like here
It looks to me like the intention is to register titles but not boundaries. Neither is registered in the U.S.
The questions I'd have include:
What other means does a landowner have of defending his or her title within certain definite boundaries?
Isn't there a registry of deeds or other conveyances by which interests in land have descended to the present owners?
If the original titles were so indefinitely described as to be unlocatable with any certainty, can't adjoining landowners fix their common boundaries by written agreement?
We have the same system here in California, we just never bothered to write it down.
At that rate, you, in affect, have, what is roughly, a vicinity sketch ?
Kent McMillan, post: 389540, member: 3 wrote: The questions I'd have include:
What other means does a landowner have of defending his or her title within certain definite boundaries?
There is no definitive register of boundary. Historical evidence and older national mapping can be used to argue boundary position. Any property with registered title also has a title map but as stated above it is not a conclusive registration.
Kent McMillan, post: 389540, member: 3 wrote:
Isn't there a registry of deeds or other conveyances by which interests in land have descended to the present owners?
Yes but they rarely convey accurate boundary information.
Kent McMillan, post: 389540, member: 3 wrote:
If the original titles were so indefinitely described as to be unlocatable with any certainty, can't adjoining landowners fix their common boundaries by written agreement?
Yes they can and do but any disagreement usually ends up in court with a judge making a best guess based on evidence presented.
R.J. Schneider, post: 389558, member: 409 wrote: At that rate, you, in affect, have, what is roughly, a vicinity sketch ?
Correct.
Totalsurv, post: 389565, member: 8202 wrote: Yes but they rarely convey accurate boundary information.
Yes they can and do but any disagreement usually ends up in court with a judge making a best guess based on evidence presented.
This sounds as if it would be a function that land surveyors could serve, i.e. finding boundary locations that reconcile the evidence of the surrounding landowners' titles as well as may be had. If the titles are essentially based upon pre-Irish independence Ordnance Survey maps or something equivalent to that, then isn't the surveyor's proper function to identify the walls, hedgerows, and ditches that constitute the boundaries?
Not being able to define land boundaries would strike me to be (a) the Irish Solicitors Full Employment Act and (b) a genuine drag on land use with a cost attached.
Kent McMillan, post: 389599, member: 3 wrote: This sounds as if it would be a function that land surveyors could serve, i.e. finding boundary locations that reconcile the evidence of the surrounding landowners' titles as well as may be had. If the titles are essentially based upon pre-Irish independence Ordnance Survey maps or something equivalent to that, then isn't the surveyor's proper function to identify the walls, hedgerows, and ditches that constitute the boundaries?
Not being able to define land boundaries would strike me to be (a) the Irish Solicitors Full Employment Act and (b) a genuine drag on land use with a cost attached.
That is generally how it works in that the best evidence is produced by each parties surveyor. What makes it more difficult is that the maps used to register title while not being a conclusive registration are believed to be so by the general public. The title maps are based on Ordnance Survey Ireland data which have accuracy well below what is required for boundary delineation.
Surprisingly enough most solicitors are also fed up with the system. It is a genuine drag on land use particularly in urban areas where land values are higher and a few sq. metres can be very valuable.
Totalsurv, post: 389637, member: 8202 wrote: Surprisingly enough most solicitors are also fed up with the system. It is a genuine drag on land use particularly in urban areas where land values are higher and a few sq. metres can be very valuable.
I'm sure that both solicitors and surveyors have considered the exact changes in the law that would remedy the present state of affairs. Is there already a specialized Land Court to deal with boundary questions?
Kent McMillan, post: 389644, member: 3 wrote: I'm sure that both solicitors and surveyors have considered the exact changes in the law that would remedy the present state of affairs. Is there already a specialized Land Court to deal with boundary questions?
Surveyor representative organisations have made attempts in recent years to introduce a better system, but there was too much opposition to it from government bodies. It seems to have fizzled out. There is no specialised land court just the normal courts system. Something will have to change eventually but it will have to come from surveyors infiltrating the Property Registration Authority!
Mark Mayer, post: 389534, member: 424 wrote: It looks to me like the intention is to register titles but not boundaries. Neither is registered in the U.S.
Mark's analysis is correct in that it appears that "the intention is to register titles but not boundaries." However, there are a few states which allow for land registration under a Torrens Title type of system. There are two prongs for registration. One can register the title only which will insure that the ownership is properly adjudicated. The second can register the boundary location by conducting a survey, determining the boundaries by physical monuments, and adjudicating the boundaries with proper notice to adjoining landowners. Both prongs can be completed at the same time or independently.
I remember, [USER=262]@Paul The Irishman[/USER], posting on the old board; about his efforts to devise a better system for the good folks in Ireland. I see by his profile that is in Perth, Western Australia now, though.
Maybe he will see this and shed a wee bit of light on how his efforts prevailed...
