I've been licensed in Washington State for 25 years but have not done a lot of work there. I'm rather embarrassed that I have not been aware of this regulation governing topographic surveys until today. Luckily, I routinely include most of these things on my topos as a matter of course. What say you?
WAC 332-130-145
Topographic elements on maps—Requirements.
What's the difference between vertical datum and basis of elevation?
What's the difference between vertical datum and basis of elevation?
One would be a datum and the other is how you connected your survey to it.
I am not a fan of this over regulation. We prepare numerous topographic surveys in WA and never ever had to turn them into a presentable paper map. We simply did the work and then engineering took the work and completed a design. Now, we need to almost create 2 different products, the one we use and the one that is presentable in paper form. There is huge difference with zero benefit.
What happens when we add a little info to a topo? Another new map... over regulation in my opinion. But then that why a survey cost 350$+ to record in WA and 5$ in Idaho.
We prepare numerous topographic surveys in WA and never ever had to turn them into a presentable paper map.
Same here. I just put a collection of notes and symbols like this into the file.
@norman-oklahoma How do I connect a geoid to my survey? Just make a note that says "because my rover told me so"? 😀
I am not a fan of this over regulation. We prepare numerous topographic surveys in WA and never ever had to turn them into a presentable paper map. We simply did the work and then engineering took the work and completed a design. Now, we need to almost create 2 different products, the one we use and the one that is presentable in paper form. There is huge difference with zero benefit.
These requirements must only apply to topos that are recorded?
These requirements must only apply to topos that are recorded?
Topo's can't be recorded. This applies to ALL topos, except those completed on job sites by non surveyors.
How do I connect a geoid to my survey?
The question would be "how do I convert ellipsoidal heights to orthometric?" The answer, "by applying Geoid 18"
These requirements must only apply to topos that are recorded?
Are topos ever recorded? Not in my experience. But they do go out to the public, and the public has a right to expect certain standards of performance. If you, like WA-ID, only deal internally it would not likely ever become an issue. But it could.
For myself, I believe that these standards are reasonable asks. This information would be of great interest to one who had to pick up a project that had been dormant for a time, especially if he was not the original surveyor.
Including metadata in professional work is essential. While design clients might not always need it, adding a border with notes to a drawing before sending it out takes little effort. California used to require, and might still, a printed copy of transmitted work product. I've managed to fit 4 miles of topo on a single 11x17 sheet. The contours might not be clear, but at least the metadata is visible. Besides, without metadata, how would know the point where you scaled your SPC coordinates by the CF to approximate ground without truncating the coordinates?
Regarding recording fees, it seems that few counties in Washington have surveyors reviewing surveys before they're recorded, so the price difference is likely due to other factors.
90%+ our work is internal. We don't send topos out for use by others but when do we simply provide the pertinent information in a word document or email or in the file depending on client requirements. All our work is Always scaled to 0,0 with no truncation.
So yes, it almost doubles our topo costs to turn our topos into a map presentable for viewing on paper. It's worked flawlessly for 2 decades without the need to turn it into a paper map...until now.
And no, none of my counties have surveyor reviews, just high recording fees for the overspending bureaucrats.
it almost doubles our topo costs to turn our topos into a map presentable for viewing on paper.
Adding these things doubles your cost? Seriously? That's a stretch. And they don't even have to be presentable on paper. Just present.
Adding these things doubles your cost? Seriously?
Ok, ya got me! It certainly doesn't double it but definitely adds unnecessary time and cost to our map production with zero benefit. You forgot items 2 and 3 too, those are all added cost and time. Our system is very automated so having to make it 'map presentable' as opposed to engineering functional are different. For example, we dont ever label contours(engineering does that when they data reference the surface into their design), show any spot elevations(thats all handled by the surface) and don't call out much of anything with notes.
We use lots of attached pics to our survey points/symbols to handle that. Those pics are not map presentable and are typically frozen. You said it just has to be 'present' but if it's not presentable then we're just circumventing the entire BS to begin with to say...see that dot on the map is a picture of the the stop sign. That's just checking the box to check the box.
We have projects that have morphed and changed and have had topo added literally 100 times. Are we to update the map each time? According to the rules, yes. But if you're a construction only surveyor doing as-builts or obtaining data for quantities you don't need to do any of this.
I would the rules should be modified to only be applicable if you're sending your professional product out for use outside of your organization. My 2 cents!
I would the rules should be modified to only be applicable if you're sending your professional product out for use outside of your organization. My 2 cents!
This is how Maryland handles it:
(1) The results of a topographic survey shall clearly show the results of the field and office work and shall be presented, depending on the type of professional services requested, in the form of:
(a) A plat;
(b) A worksheet;
(c) Raw data; or
(d) Adjusted data.
(2) Plats are intended for a release as stand-alone products. Worksheets and raw data are intended as components to be included in other surveying or engineering documents and are not intended as stand-alone products. Worksheets and raw data are not required to comply with this regulation.
That said, if I'm delivering a CAD file to in-house or outside client engineers (a lot of our work) as a basis for their design, all the pertinent notes, control charts, etc. that would be on an issued paper map are in the CAD drawing. Eventually someone is going to have to put datum, date of survey, etc. on the engineering plans - I'd rather give them the info then have them just make up something like "contours based on sea level"
I don't see why the regulations are thought to be onerous. Granted when doing the topography for an in house "client" all of that information may not be necessary. But unless it remains in house from design to finished construction, someone is going to need all those items that are being required. The idea that no one else will need that metadata is myopic.
90%+ our work is internal. We don't send topos out for use by others but when do we simply provide the pertinent information in a word document or email or in the file depending on client requirements. All our work is Always scaled to 0,0 with no truncation.
So yes, it almost doubles our topo costs to turn our topos into a map presentable for viewing on paper. It's worked flawlessly for 2 decades without the need to turn it into a paper map...until now.
And no, none of my counties have surveyor reviews, just high recording fees for the overspending bureaucrats.
I can understand not needing a boarder if you are just handing the data off to your internal engineers. I know for the certain that most of my external engineering clients make my CAD files fit their sheet sets. I still feel it is worth the extra half hour to drop it in a boarder with some notes and a legend, it give me a place to put my stamp and signature. Additionally, I have a block in model space that includes metadata like date of survey, equipment used, datums, coordinate system and units. While a separate document may work, I doubt it will ever follow my drawing where as at least the block should always be there.
I'm guessing none of these matters for internal clients until the engineers put out a plan set with an existing conditions sheet.
As for my comment on the scaling thing, that was not pointed at you, I was just joking around based on the number of surveys I have to follow that bastardize an SPC without including the proper metadata.
P.s I'm going to say, I've missed some of the items in 2 & 3 with regards to purpose and use.
Topo's can't be recorded.
Really? If you take one down to the recorder they'll straight up refuse to record it?
But they do go out to the public, and the public has a right to expect certain standards of performance. If you, like WA-ID, only deal internally it would not likely ever become an issue. But it could.
When I was first mapping and drafting topos for use by external clients I thought it was a little odd that we never put a title block or any of the other things that might help it look "official" on it, but the higher ups assured me all these clients cared about were the linework, contours, etc in model space. We'd send a point file along with the cad file, but that was it as far as metadata.
While I don't necessarily disagree with the board holding us to a standard, it's hard to square this with the general lack of anything similar being applied to PE plans, at least here in NC. I don't feel like a professional when I'm not allowed any flexibility in regard to the final work product. On the other hand, it's not hard to make a checklist and boiler plate reports of survey with CAD only deliverables are an easy way to avoid the time drain of paper or pdf product that folks just tend to glance at before sending the CAD file to the person that matters. C'est la vie
it's hard to square this with the general lack of anything similar being applied to PE plans
I think it's because, unlike our stuff, the rulemakers don't really expect PE plans to be viewed by the public. Or at least that's what I like to think.
Really? If you take one down to the recorder they'll straight up refuse to record it?
Correct. I have never seen a recorded topo in any of the states or counties I've worked in.
You can find them occasionally in Oregon (mostly Multnomah County) but they are from the 1950's or earlier. Most likely from office files provided by retiring surveyors at the dawn of the recording age.