Famous statement
Measuring between two points most accurately is meaningless if the two points are not the true corners.
Something like that Keith?
Or he had the most accurate measurements in the state, problem was he was not measuring between the true corners.
I've often pondered the idea of a huge database of points... where surveyors could upload their observations. This could include control points, or whatever. I dunno. On one hand, it seems too unwieldy and unmanageable. On the other hand, it seems quite possible to handle and helpful to many.
Great!
Yes, there really ought to be an entry for the weird ideas that float around, sort of a Snopes for surveyors. The thought that a surveyor can't actually both correctly identify a boundary line and accurately determine its length and bearing would definitely qualify! :>
Data Vault
> I've often pondered the idea of a huge database of points... where surveyors could upload their observations.
Scott Partridge and his associates implemented a somewhat more general idea of a server with all sorts of data sets on it that were available for a fee to qualified users. It seems to me he said the access was via a website called "Data Vault". That was at least several years ago. I don't know how it subsequently fared.
I like the idea of a reference book for research aids. That is something that we each could contribute in our own areas. When I see a failure in a survey then most often it has to do with lack of research or only partial research.
I also would like more information on trees. Identifying and growth patterns based on type of tree and location.
The rebar reference guide would be good as well as a guide to the type of wires used in fencing over the past 100 or so years.
Really anything to help in identifying things used in retracement. The math is pretty well covered in most survey programs but the valuable information about evaluating trees and other evidence is typically not covered.
Deral
The importance of proper research, how to make a good sketch, how to take and make proper notes in a field book, why contracts are important, what is scope creep and why a clearly identified scope of services is critical, why your appearance matters, stressing the importance of good communication skills (both verbal and written)...
Just a few things that might be helpful.
After the introductory chapter on how to win friends (clients) and influence people (judges), co-authored by Kent and Keith, would there be any room for other topics such as pipe v. stone?:)
One of the most informative topics might be how local jurisdictions actually handle evidence at the trial level. I spent quite a bit of time studying the federal rules of evidence in law school. The rules have become practically undecipherable and require a special expert on the team just to deal with them in some instances. In NY they don't appear to apply at all; it's just a street brawl of rhetoric intended to mislead and confuse the judge (or jury). Kind of a fun battle of wits but not really conducive to keeping legal costs reasonable or finding truth from evidence. Nevertheless, if one knows ahead of time how the evidence will be handled in a judicial review of a survey, it makes preparing a reasonable decision much more likely.
As Kent mentioned, actual practical application seems to be lacking in the current texts and seminar shows. I mean sure, a guy did survive going over Niagara Falls in a barrel, and it's fun to talk about, but it's pretty much an exception to the rule that I wouldn't count on. Unfortunately, people take away from these fun stories that the rule is survival in this situation. For instance, I was recently pleasantly informed by a local GIS technician that while they were happy to provide a tax map copy, I could not use it as evidence in court. I don't know where they got that idea, but I've successfully used a mere place mat map in addition to tax maps in the past. So there is no rule that tax maps can't be admitted as evidence.
Does sound like an interesting project, but it could become cumbersome. What about just giving contact information under the topic headings? Reference topic "GIS" - Call Deral $150 per hour, etc..
What are the basic rights of ownership of allodial land here in the US?
What process is to be followed to correct errors in the land records that will comply with your state statutes?
Find a procedure that does not require a baseball bat to convince surveyors we have no obligation to perpetuate an existing deed description and make sure that a surveyor understands that we have no obligation to follow in the footsteps of the original surveyor unless the owner's have preserved the original boundaries.
Richard Schaut
I'd like to see something about gradient boundaries that actually has pictures of field work done. Ken Gold does a good job of explaining the procedure in his book Decisions but the diagram leaves a lot to be desired.
"...convince surveyors we have no obligation to perpetuate an existing deed description and make sure that a surveyor understands that we have no obligation to follow in the footsteps of the original surveyor"
This would be a good topic for the "Surveyors Gone Wild", "Rare Aberrations In Surveying" or "Fence Line Surveying In Wisconsin" categories.
> This would be a good topic for the "Surveyors Gone Wild", "Rare Aberrations In Surveying" or "Fence Line Surveying In Wisconsin" categories.
Actually, it turns out that Richard's pet ideas aren't even reflected in Wisconsin statutes or case law. Surveyors still have to decide which part of the section that fence line meanders through since Wisconsin statutes specifically provide that adverse possession doesn't alter the original government subdivision.
What would be interesting would be to identify the most commonly cited Cooley decisions such as Zanger v. Diehl and give a discussion of what was really at issue in the case from a surveying perspective as well as the less quoted statements by Cooley dealing with the paramount value of original corners. That would add reality to the results.
> I'd like to see something about gradient boundaries that actually has pictures of field work done.
That's a pretty good idea. Photos of the so-called "qualified banks" in different areas and on different streams ought to be very useful.
> Does sound like an interesting project, but it could become cumbersome. What about just giving contact information under the topic headings? Reference topic "GIS" - Call Deral $150 per hour, etc..
Well you've got both Deral and MLB in the category of Geospecial Professional (ret). I'll bet there are other retirees who wouldn't mind a chance to do consulting as long as they didn't have to do any actual work.
The thing would continually have material added, just like Wikipedia. I'm not sure how to resolve the "white-is-black" problem that seems to be inherent in some minority points of view within the universe of potential contributors. I suppose that the solution is to simply provide alternate entries for a topic where there is fundamental disagreement and let the user sort it out for himself or herself.
I think that both MLB and myself are very concerned with the Survey Industry and those that populate this industry. If we did not care, nor were trying to aid and guide those, then we both could find many other GIS only boards. That we attempt to educate and help our brethren only shows our dedication to the Land Surveyors. Retired does not mean that you are no longer a Surveyor.
I realize that often you post tongue in cheek but sometimes you just go over the top and do a great disservice to those that might want to expand their knowledge or markets.
Learning some database functions can be just as important as learning to use Kent*Net in this harsh economic environment.
And for the record. It's more like $300 per hour and we only work with those of our own choosing.
Deral-Happily working now with GIS and trying to get other Surveyors involved.
> One of the most informative topics might be how local jurisdictions actually handle evidence at the trial level. I spent quite a bit of time studying the federal rules of evidence in law school. The rules have become practically undecipherable and require a special expert on the team just to deal with them in some instances. In NY they don't appear to apply at all; it's just a street brawl of rhetoric intended to mislead and confuse the judge (or jury). Kind of a fun battle of wits but not really conducive to keeping legal costs reasonable or finding truth from evidence. Nevertheless, if one knows ahead of time how the evidence will be handled in a judicial review of a survey, it makes preparing a reasonable decision much more likely.
That's also a pretty interesting idea, in Texas what you run into in some rural jurisdictions, particularly when one side is represented by local counsel and the other not, is that the law is sometimes secondary to local sentiments. It would also be useful to demonstrate how unpredictable courts are even on issues seemingly well settled in case law.
> I think that both MLB and myself are very concerned with the Survey Industry and those that populate this industry.
Okay, where is the survey factory located? I've always thought of surveying as a profession, but that's probably just silly old me. :>
All of the topics suggested are interesting to some if not all of us. Wikipedia for surveyors? Can it be folded right into Wikipedia?
There is no factory for surveys. And yes, you are being silly and senile.
There are many other markets for Surveyors outside the box of some sparse West Texas parcels.
Not everyone has the clients that need a $100 piece of property surveyed for $20,000 dollars.
I do not wish to dilute this thread with off topic remarks but you fired the first shot. So be it.
There is a huge market out there for emergency management, infrastructure gathering, and many other things where Surveyors can shine and make money. Do not let your myopic vision cloud the minds of others that wish to pursue these venues.
If not the surveyor then who? One of the only things every written by RS that rings true.
You, like some others, are marginalizing Surveyors into a very tight cubbyhole. That cubbyhole does not exist for those of us that have learned to adapt and move forward.
Deral
Industry
> There is no factory for surveys. And yes, you are being silly and senile.
Well, if there isn't any survey factory, what sort of survey "industry" did you have in mind? :> Seriously, I find that folks who use the term "survey industry" are usually not intimately involved in land surveying, but are usually optimistic vendors.
For example the terms "medical industry" and "legal industry" conjure up entirely unprofessional and similarly negative connotations, suggesting some sort of rote work like GIS data collection.
