Curtis Holcomb, LS449, God rest his soul, was the Grady County Surveyor for a good number of years. Curtis was definitely old school and not particularly good at higher math. But one thing Curtis DID get right was his Section Corner references. He was able to get the majority of his recorded corners filed with the advent of our Corner Perpetuation Act in 1978.
A lot of us today use Holcomb's corners. I have found them to be very reliable.
Well, Curtis filed a CCR on a Center Corner that was not originally set by the GLO (very, very few centers were set):
It may be hard to read, but the description reads "STONE" (Curtis was a man of few words). No other ties other than some pull-ties to a couple of scrub oaks and an iron pin.
Here's my pickle:
I have found this "stone", corroborated by a 1/2" IP North and East, at 24.6'. It does fit the fences in the area but damn sure doesn't fit the 1996 "boundary" put together by the highway boys when the turnpike spur was built. They have a tendency to disregard such petty things as corner references.
I can find no other record of a Holcomb survey. He mentions nothing else whatsoever on the corner record. My gut instinct tells me this wasn't just a rock kicked out by some bonehead. All of Holcomb's stuff is very reliable.
Any shred of evidence that ties this monument to anything would be a godsend, but I can find nothing. How do you put in words you are relying purely on the integrity of someone that is long gone?
That corner record should stand all by itself as authoritative evidence of the monument marking the location of the c 1/4 and one could cite it as such. At least out here it would.
> Curtis Holcomb, LS449, God rest his soul, was the Grady County Surveyor for a good number of years. Curtis was definitely old school and not particularly good at higher math. But one thing Curtis DID get right was his Section Corner references. He was able to get the majority of his recorded corners filed with the advent of our Corner Perpetuation Act in 1978.
> A lot of us today use Holcomb's corners. I have found them to be very reliable.
> I have found this "stone", corroborated by a 1/2" IP North and East, at 24.6'. It does fit the fences in the area but damn sure doesn't fit the 1996 "boundary" put together by the highway boys when the turnpike spur was built. They have a tendency to disregard such petty things as corner references.
>
> I can find no other record of a Holcomb survey. He mentions nothing else whatsoever on the corner record. My gut instinct tells me this wasn't just a rock kicked out by some bonehead. All of Holcomb's stuff is very reliable.
>
> Any shred of evidence that ties this monument to anything would be a godsend, but I can find nothing. How do you put in words you are relying purely on the integrity of someone that is long gone?
Consider yourself lucky. You have paper trail (sparse as it is) of where the stone came from. Most established C1/4's don't have that much. You have evidence that the corner was established in good faith (occupation, the actions of a respected and competent county surveyor, and the corner record). Is that enough? That is your call. But, without even better and more reliable evidence that the corner was NOT established in good faith, I think your decision is easy.
6-41: These are matters of particular interest to the adjoining owners, and it is a reasonable presumption that care and good faith would be exercised with regard to the evidence of the original survey in existence at the time. Obviously, the burden of proof to the contrary must be borne by the party claiming differently.
Did the highway boys have enough reliable and acceptable evidence to properly dismiss this corner, or did they simply ignore it (not enough research / didn't fit the math perfectly)?
Would you consider that the center of section has never been set even while looking at a public record from 1978? Can it ever be set? At least 35 years of reliance (you say the fences and occupation all line up with the corner) by the landowners yet it's not the corner.
I'd have no problem under Utah Law accepting the corner and moving on. Maybe not right in other states where boundaries can never be established, but the Utah Court has said otherwise.
I agree with the others, that stone is as good as gold!
“It does fit the fences in the area but damn sure doesn't fit the 1996 "boundary" put together by the highway boys when the turnpike spur was built.”
Don’t know about Oklahoma, but FL courts will agree with the DOT almost every time regardless of blatantly obvious evidence. :-S
I guess I'm twisted by the fact..
that the stone wasn't set as a part of the original survey. I agree the monument has been relied upon as a boundary marker for a good length of time. To me, it IS the corner.
I don't think Curtis set the stone. Curtis set 1/2" rebar. I think Curtis found the stone...
I guess I just want to know "WHO" set it originally, and "HOW". I bet I will never know. 🙁
I can see the courts agreeing with DOT as far as DOT's boundaries are concerned, but does a DOT survey of their ROW fix all other boundaries in a section and relocate section corners?
The fact that the stone fits occupation is extremely good supporting evidence of the validity of the stone, and I would accept long standing occupation greater than twenty years to be what a court would be inclined to go with.
GLO surveyors almost never set the Section centers except in aliquot sections.
Any old County Surveyor notes on file anywhere? We generally have them here in downstate Illinois, but we also usually have old plat books available too.
County Highway Department have any old notes?
Grasshopper, you may find answers to your question within the context of the question.
"I have found this "stone", corroborated by a 1/2" IP North and East, at 24.6'. It does fit the fences in the area." I am relying on the Corner Record as per Curtis Holcomb, LS449 (deceased) former Grady County Surveyor. I am relying on the integrity, recorded corner record, and past historical retracement of the work of Mr. Holcomb.
It sure looks like your evidence trumps a subsequent section corner.
I guess I'm twisted by the fact..
> that the stone wasn't set as a part of the original survey. I agree the monument has been relied upon as a boundary marker for a good length of time. To me, it IS the corner.
>
> I don't think Curtis set the stone. Curtis set 1/2" rebar. I think Curtis found the stone...
>
> I guess I just want to know "WHO" set it originally, and "HOW". I bet I will never know. 🙁
Is this in the same situation as the Pin vs Stone arguement from the old RPLS site a few years ago where the center of section (C¼) was set by the GLO in some of the Townships during their original surveys? If so, like the prior old thread, the Center of the Section stone monument is as original as any of the exterior monuments.
If I find a stone (of record) and accessories (also of record) and it works with long standing possession, I have found the corner...
