I'm doing a survey for a client that acquired some "left-over" parcels from a large industrial project that fell through 30 years ago. One of the parcels is the SW4SE4 and E2SE4 of Section 1.
The south line of the 1/4 is 4100' long, the west line 3100' long,the north line is 3400' long, the east line is close to a standard length at 2680.
A state highway runs through the SW4SE4 and back in the 40's the state acquired a strip in fee out of the SW4SE4, about that time everything west of the highway was deeded away.
So fast forward, the typical thing happened and the ranch deeded the SW4SE4 and E1/2SE1/4 and it kept getting resold that way until the present time even though there were portions taken away over time.
So my client is upset that the deed doesn't have the exceptions referenced and I said that it's no big deal, my survey will show what is actually happening. They say they may have a claim because they purchased the land by acreage.
My question is how did someone come up with an acreage, there was never a survey.
Yes the section has been surveyed to death, but that parcel never was, who calculated an acreage? There is no chance (I don't think) of winning a claim against a title insurer over acreage when none was ever figured out, until a survey is done how can you even state an acreage for purchase, the title people just passed down the deed.
My guess is someone got on a computer and did something and came up with an acreage, so can that mean anything? It doesn't to me, sounds like surveying without a license.
> So fast forward, the typical thing happened and the ranch deeded the SW4SE4 and E1/2SE1/4 and it kept getting resold that way until the present time even though there were portions taken away over time.
>
> So my client is upset that the deed doesn't have the exceptions referenced and I said that it's no big deal, my survey will show what is actually happening. They say they may have a claim because they purchased the land by acreage.
>
My question would be why did they purchase the property "by acreage" without a survey? Stupid is as stupid does.
[sarcasm]But hey, they saved some money didn't they?[/sarcasm]
> My question is how did someone come up with an acreage, there was never a survey.
By guess and by golly, I guess. Who knows? Again, if a prudent buyer pays for land by the acre without a current survey performed by a competent land surveyor, he gets what he deserves - and it sure isn't anyone else's fault.
> Yes the section has been surveyed to death, but that parcel never was, who calculated an acreage? There is no chance (I don't think) of winning a claim against a title insurer over acreage when none was ever figured out, until a survey is done how can you even state an acreage for purchase, the title people just passed down the deed.
>
[sarcasm]But hey, they saved some money didn't they?[/sarcasm]
> My guess is someone got on a computer and did something and came up with an acreage, so can that mean anything?
I guess it meant enough for the buyer and seller to make and fulfill a contract. It would depend on who determined the acreage, how it was represented, and the reliance and due diligence by the buyer, and of course the "damage".
>It doesn't to me, sounds like surveying without a license.
No, it is not surveying without a license. I sure haven't read any statute (not saying one isn't out there somewhere) that declares merely estimating the size of a parcel of land is "surveying".
What it actually is, is a textbook case of a buyer not doing his due diligence.
No, it is not surveying without a license. I sure haven't read any statute (not saying one isn't out there somewhere) that declares merely estimating the size of a parcel of land is "surveying".
Well when you put a value to it and use it for the sale, sounds like it to me.
Had a client call on another matter. In our conversations the matter drifted over to a legal description they had for a purchase of property up in MT and the problems in it not closing. Long story short I resolved the problem and the client said " Thank you, we are purchasing the parcel based on acreages and you just saved us $120,000.":-O
Pablo B-)
Acreage and Title Insurance
I recently did a Title Survey for a building lot and found the area was 1/3 acre - not 1/2 acre. The deal fell through.
I asked one of the lawyers involved if the seller had title insurance. He told me that it didn't matter, title insurance coverage excludes acreage.
Can this be true?
Acreage and Title Insurance
> I recently did a Title Survey for a building lot and found the area was 1/3 acre - not 1/2 acre. The deal fell through.
>
> I asked one of the lawyers involved if the seller had title insurance. He told me that it didn't matter, title insurance coverage excludes acreage.
>
> Can this be true?
Absolutely!! People need to actually read the policy, especially the "exceptions" to coverage.
Acreage and Title Insurance
The title policies would be a lot shorter if they just said that they weren't covering anything and then added "other than" and then listed what they would actually cover. 😀
> No, it is not surveying without a license. I sure haven't read any statute (not saying one isn't out there somewhere) that declares merely estimating the size of a parcel of land is "surveying".
>
> Well when you put a value to it and use it for the sale, sounds like it to me.
Who guesstimated the acreage, and how did they do it? Was it represented as being a "surveyed" acreage? What usually happens around here is they use the assessed acreage value from the county or the estimated acreage from the federal farm services offices.
Again, the landowners and the buyers are expected to know what they own, and are buying and selling. Our job is to assist them and provide the expert services to assure them of the boundaries and acreage of what they are buying/selling. If they don't use our expertise, or if they only hire us after the fact, and they relied on an inaccurate estimate for the transaction, that is their fault.
If placing a value on property, based at least in part on acreage, is the "trigger", how can any county assess property without the assessor's staff being made up nearly entirely of licensed surveyors?
Over my years of understudy (aka- forced manual labor in a psychologically hostile environment; akin to indentured servitude 😉 ), I was always reminded, "A person can't sell what they don't own!"
I think this came up when I asked my party chief why the painted 4x8 sheet of plywood at the frontage said, "+/- 463 Acres".
It leads me back, everytime, to "buyer beware". If more people knew/ understood this, I think they wouldn't forego the survey as often.
The only legal recourse I could imagine would be if there was an intent to defraud. Like if the seller or real estate agent knowingly misrepresented the acreage. This would require proof, prior to the sale, that they knew the actual acreage.
Someone mentioned using the 'tax' acreage for listing. I think this is what most agents go to, absent a survey. Fits in with why you see that good, old +/- ______ Acres, again.
If there was a sub-standard survey (which you stated there was not any survey), that is a different matter and warrants a different approach.
Who guesstimated the acreage, and how did they do it? Was it represented as being a "surveyed" acreage?
That's what I don't know, I THINK it came from someone with a computer putting together who knows what. I very much doubt they represented it as a survey, still just use 120-that's record.
That would be my guess, the tax assessor's description and valuation. To tax it they needed an acreage and so they did some math and came up with one. People in my parts use tax descriptions all the time to deed property. Why survey it or do record research when all you need to do to use what's on your latest tax notice. Causes all kinds of confusion. Heck, my dad even did it!
Acreage and Title Insurance
Title insurance rarely pays on any claims. Basically, you are buying an insurance policy from the title company that covers liability in case the title company makes a mistake. I know it doesn't make any sense.:-/
In an Assessor's office, you get your USDA aerial photo, you precisely determine the boundaries from apparent fence lines overgrown with grass & vines, and you get out your polar planimeter.
Voila! Acreage measured easily!
Send out the tax bill.
Or did you think they just did it haphazardly?
> In an Assessor's office, you get your USDA aerial photo, you precisely determine the boundaries from apparent fence lines overgrown with grass & vines, and you get out your polar planimeter.
I've seen this done! More than once.
Actually, the GIS has it correctly shown, and is pretty close to the acreage, so how the acreages came about for the sale......I just can't say:-/
Mighty:
This wouldn't be North of the Gillette Airport would it?
lol, No, Charles, but I know what you are talking about up there. Been involved with THAT mess since back in 1979.
That is something I wish I never saw
> lol, No, Charles, but I know what you are talking about up there. Been involved with THAT mess since back in 1979.
>
> That is something I wish I never saw
Yep, it is a mess, the highway survey being bogus, then F.L. going in there and surveying and creating supposed lots, which he shoudn't have done, then the guy from Caliland going in and moving F.L.s brass caps, which were wrong to begin with, and then stamping them "Corrected Corner", which was still wrong. We were there in 1977 and the BLM did a corner search about that time and recovered several corners way West of the bogus highway West Section line. I'll have to download the Dependent Resurvey notes and plats one of these days and go thru them to see what transpired when they finished. That is one wierd area. I don't remember now what Spielmans old records showed for his surveys in the area.
If a feller is going to do anything in Campbell County, he needs Spielmans old stuff and if in Converse County, he needs L.C. Bishops old books (section corner records) showing his surveys in that county.
If a feller is going to do anything in Campbell County, he needs Spielmans old stuff and if in Converse County, he needs L.C. Bishops old books (section corner records) showing his surveys in that county.
There are strange areas in both counties, the stuff north of the airport was "resolved" by the BLM. I guess you could call it that. You can call up the plats online if you really want to look at that. There isn't a township in Campbell left unresurveyed. Converse County is another story, and it is busy there now!!
The B.L.M. was supposed to send me copies of the notes and plats for a lot of the Township Resurveys when they got done for my providing them with all the data I had throughout that (Gillette)(Campbell County) area and where they would be working in Converse County, but I never got a thing from them.