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Text size and plot scale?

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(@ridge)
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I'm doing some review of a proposed subdivision plat, almost 1000 lots. The lots are ½ to maybe 2 acres. It's drawn at 200 feet per inch and the text is very small, probably 0.05 inch. The county regs really don't address this other than the commission can reject a plat for not being say, readable. The ordinance does say plats will be plotted at 50 feet per inch.

Generally, what is an acceptable plot scale for ½ acre lots or 1 acre lots. What about text size? I'm inclined towards 0.1 inch or larger with some limited exception maybe down to 0.08 inch text where it cleans things up a bit.

I'd also like for a plat when scanned and then plotted a ½ scale to still be clear and readable.

What say you guys? What's reasonable?

 
Posted : October 22, 2014 12:09 pm
(@bruce-small)
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In my experience 0.07 is quite legible, and for recorded documents 0.10 is standard. Anything over that is overkill.

 
Posted : October 22, 2014 12:11 pm
(@dave-ingram)
Posts: 2142
 

Here is what the Commonwealth of Virginia has to say about recording standards:

Records Management Standards for Plats

17VAC15-60-10, et. seq.

Sec. 1. Statement of Applicability:

These standards shall apply to all plats and maps submitted for recordation in the circuit courts of the Commonwealth.

Sec. 2. Recording Medium:

Documents size shall be between 8 1/2 x 11 and 18 x 24 inches, and the scale shall be appropriate to the size of the paper. Original plats shall be inscribed on either translucent or opaque paper, polyester or linen. The background quality for opaque paper shall be uniformly white, smooth in finish, unglazed, and free of visible watermarks or background logos. Only the original or first generation unreduced black or blue line copy of the original plat drawing, which meets the quality inscription standards noted below and has the stamp and original signature of the preparer, shall be submitted for recordation. NOTE: [A plat prepared prior to 1986 which is being entered as reference can be recorded if the current landowner's notarized signature appears on the plat. Changes or alterations made to any original plat must be accompanied by the stamp and signature of the preparer who did the changes/alterations. Any plats exempted from these regulations under the Code of Virginia can be recorded with the notarized signature of the original preparer.]

Sec. 3. Quality Inscription Standards:

Color of original inscription shall be black or blue and be solid, uniform, dense, sharp, and unglazed. Signatures shall be in dark blue or black ink. Lettering shall be no less than 1/1O inch or 2.54 mm. in height. Lettering and line weight shall be no less than .O13 inches or .33O2 mm. Letter and line spacing for control pencil drawings shall be no less than .O5O inches and for ink drawings no less than .O4O inches. Drawing substance must be either wet ink or control pencil but not a combination thereof. Good drafting practices shall be followed when eliminating ghost lines and when doing erasures, and all shading and screening shall be eliminated over written data. Inscriptions shall meet standards established herein, and Engineering Drawing and Related Documentation Practices - Line Conventions and Lettering (ANSI Y14.2M-1987), Technical Drawing - Lettering - Part I: Currently Used Characters (ISO 3098/1-1974) and Technical Drawings - Sizes and Layout of Drawing Sheets ISO 5457-1980 shall be consulted as guidelines.

Sec. 4. Format for Copies:

Margins shall be at least l/4 inch on all sides, and inscriptions are to be made on only one side of the paper. All drawings shall have centering marks on each side, adjacent and outside the margins. Match lines or grid tics delineating 8 1/2 x 11 inch sections shall be inscribed on all plats larger than 8 l/2 x 11 inches, to create the least number of grid blocks possible and be located adjacent and inside the margins. Continuation sheets of multi-sheet drawings shall be the same size as the first sheet.

Sec. 5. Recording Standards:

Recordation inscriptions shall be by clerk's printed certificate, stamping, typing or handwriting and shall conform to the quality inscription standards noted above.

Sec. 6. Exclusion:

A first generation copy of an original plat drawing dated prior to July 1, 1986 shall be admitted to record subject to the requirements in the Note in section 2 above.

Sec. 7. Note:

Where a plat is submitted as part of an instrument, these plat standards shall apply to such plat.

- See more at: http://beerleg.com/index.php?mode=thread&id=285116#sthash.0HPEM0xT.dpuf

 
Posted : October 22, 2014 12:33 pm
(@wayne-g)
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What Bruce said. Here in NW AZ the county recorder requires 0.11 text size, and I've had them put scales on the plats to verify it.

I don't mind too much, but it does tend to lead to Line Tables, Curve Tables, assorted miscellaneous notes. That leads to transposition errors, especially in the field. Most of those would be better placed at their appropriate place on the plat, like along the line and/or curve. But it is easier on my geezer eyes to read than 0.05 and the recorders excuse is it does not micro-film well with the smaller fonts.

 
Posted : October 22, 2014 1:15 pm
(@imaudigger)
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If I am drawing a full size set of plans that I know will be reduced, I try to maintain .1 x scale. If I'm drawing something that will primarily be used on 11 x17 paper, I will use .08 x scale.

The tendency is to reduce all mapping to 11 x17, so I try and take that into consideration.

 
Posted : October 22, 2014 1:47 pm
(@cptdent)
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For those not limited in this issue by State regs, the best thing to do is to fall back on the system that has been the standard of the printing industry for years. Using point size equivalents allows your end used to add notes to a base drawing that looks just like your computer generated product. A lot of people still use stripping film and some still know how to use a Leroy set.
Ever wonder where the Leroy sizes came from? Those lettering guide sizes match the text point heights.
50 guide=0.05"=5 point
60 guide=0.06"=6 point
80 guide=0.08"=8point
100 guide=0.10"=10 point
120 guide=0.120"=12 point
140 guide=0.140"=14 point and so on.
To use these sizes in your drawing simply multiply the text size in inches by your drawing scale. 80guide x 1"=30'scale =2.4 text height on your computer. Couldn't be any simpler.
Many outfits require a minimum text height of a 100 guide or 0.10". That' really too big on a 1"=30' drawing. I have seen half size prints made where a 60 guide (0.06") worked just fine when reduced. You just have to watch out for overprints and crowding.

 
Posted : October 22, 2014 1:56 pm
(@oldpacer)
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When I started drafting, we still used Leroy tracing tiles. L60 for small text, L80 for regular text and L100 for large text. L120 or L140 for titles and headers. I still use this format today. It almost always works well. Printers and copies work so well today that I even use L50 for minor text. For applications where copies will be reduced, L80 (0.08 x scale) should be your smallest text. The last survey I did for GSA required a minimum text size of 0.10 (L100) so they could reduce your 24"x36" drawing to letter size and it still be vaguely readable. I am glad we have no County standards for text size, but if the Surveyor that uses L60 for boundary dimensions does not stop, we will.

 
Posted : October 22, 2014 5:31 pm
(@jimmy-cleveland)
Posts: 2812
 

I was taught to use the Leroy scales (sizes) in my CAD drafting when I started in 1995. I still use them today.

 
Posted : October 23, 2014 5:09 am
(@jim-in-az)
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"...and the scale shall be appropriate to the size of the paper."

I really like clear, understandable, easily enforceabke standards like this...

 
Posted : October 23, 2014 5:46 am
(@mneuder)
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I've always used 7 point as my absolute minimum, and like to use 9

 
Posted : October 23, 2014 9:47 am
(@norman-oklahoma)
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IMO, 0.04" (40 Leroy) is the limit of legibility. No text smaller than that. Full Size sheets (22"x 34") are likely to get printed out half size, so to maintain 0.04" limit on that half sized plot, minimum text sizes should be 0.08" for full sized sheets. For Exhibit Maps on smaller sheets (8 1/2"x11", eg) which are not likely to be printed out at reduced scale text smaller than 0.08" is OK.

In this case, since you don't have a stated limit, and it is legible, I think you should let it pass. Then make a rule.

 
Posted : October 23, 2014 12:00 pm
(@ridge)
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Here is what I have to deal with:

The final plat drawing shall have the following standards:
A. The plat shall be prepared and certification made as to its accuracy by a registered land
surveyor licensed to do such work in the state of Utah. A workman-like execution of the
plat shall be made in every detail. A poorly drawn or illegible plat is sufficient cause for
its rejection.

OK, this plat (a bunch of 24x36 sheets) is to become the base title document for over 900 lots. We are early in the process and it won't really cause all that much change to get it on track at a scale and text height that is more proper in my view. The plat is for a bunch of humans, many older with hardened eye balls. If the plat was for a subdivision of a piss ant hill maybe the very small text would be appropriate. If the applicant wants to fight it out with the planning commission and maybe delay their approval going to an appeal that would be their choice, one I'm pretty sure they won't purse (just fix the plat as requested and go forth).

You might wonder about my attitude on this. Simple, I'm the chairman of the planning commission, I've seen a lot of crap pass though over the last three years. This 900+ lot deal ain't going to be one of them!

 
Posted : October 23, 2014 2:16 pm
(@norman-oklahoma)
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Reject it for not being 1"=50'scale. Suggest that you think it would be it would be greatly enhanced by having text 0.10" or more. 2 acre lots should have plenty of room for 0.10 text. But it is legible, you say. If the commission has the power to dictate the scale of maps it has the power to dictate text size. But it isn't fair to do so arbitrarily. As written your current rule is too subjective.

 
Posted : October 23, 2014 2:55 pm
(@ridge)
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I didn't write the rules. They are way old and in serious need of update. I'm not sure it's all that arbitrary. Other plats haven't been sent in with the very small text. Some other features weren't that good. Actually the drafting and presentation is better than most it's just so small probably in a effort to get more on a sheet. You know when viewed on a computer where you can zoom in, you could make it 0.01 inch and be alright. These sheets will be recorded on Mylar and then scanned in. I've already sent them a note asking for the increase in scale and text size. If they want to fight it, well the applicants represent a large group and I'd say are in their late 70's maybe in the 80's. If the issue comes up at the meeting I'm just going to ask the applicants to read off some of the dimensions on the plat and let it evolve from there.

You know, some things are just common sense. It shouldn't need an explicit rule for everything. I was dumb enough to post a very busy survey plat here on the board a few months ago. It got ripped to shreds but there was some very good advise in there and I've improved a few things. One thing I've never done is use very small text regardless of what the computer will do. Maybe someday everything will be digital and the use of a printout readable physically by human eyes at actual scale will be a moot point. We are not there yet.

My bottom line here is 1" = 100 feet and the smallest text at 0.08 inch. So a half acre lot would be 1 inch by 2 inches with very busy text. So that's your title document and boundary description, a 1x2 patch in the middle of a very busy 24x36 sheet. Hopefully these drafters will be more concerned with harvesting and collecting the grain than making windrows of straw in the field. Take a step back and think about what you are really doing instead of just getting a job done as quick as possible. If anything else I'm just racking up the hours for the engineering firm but I don't know maybe its a lump sum. I have heard rumors is over $300,000 so far. So what's another $5,000 to reformat a bunch of plat sheets? Money well spent for the future lot owners ($5 per lot).

 
Posted : October 23, 2014 3:46 pm
(@a-harris)
Posts: 8761
 

I have used as small as 0.03 text on ledger sized drawings at near picture quality dpi printing and it was very readable.

At 300dpi it would have looked like a smudge.

When Leroy was the main method, 0.10 was the smallest used for recorded plats because it could be reduced and still be readable.

IMVHO it all depends upon the purpose and your expectations of the drawing being proper for a final product.

 
Posted : October 23, 2014 11:03 pm