We were asked to stake out a new building. Scope was to do following:
1. Stake property corners
2. Stake 4 corners of new building
3. Set bench mark tied to the topo survey
When I finished the survey I noticed that the BM set by the original surveyor might not be tied to NAVD88 which is what our flood plain maps are tied to, and the site is in the 100 year floodplain. In addition, the building grade shown by the engineer is 92.00 feet, which is exactly the level of the 100-year floodplain, which, in my opinion should not be done.
I am hired by the contractor, and I alerted the contractor. He told me that he checked with the owner, and the owner said to leave it where it is. I emailed them again and recommended against doing this job without a certified NAVD88 elevation and also recommended putting building exactly at same level of floodplain, assuming their bm is right. He said they were moving on and doing it just like the plans. I informed them that my contract obligations had been completed, and they thanked me for my work.
But they may be about to mess up by doing this. Should I call their engineer?
"Should I call their engineer?"
I probably would, but can you call the original surveyor who set the benchmark, explain your concerns to him and let him call the engineer?
You might like to state your concerns in a letter.
Don't you think that it is necessary to state what the CBM is in NAVD 88?
After that, they are on their own and it sounds like you are dealing with someone who doesn't care or gives a $#!* for who knows why.
One can make some asssumptions
not sure about a phone call. folks can always say that they didn't talk to you, even if they did.
IMO it would be unethical to not inform all involved. do it by some sort of written device...letter, email, or whatever that can not be disputed whether it was prepared and delivered.
not only is it the ethical thing to be done, CYA may go a long way at a later date.
> not sure about a phone call. folks can always say that they didn't talk to you, even if they did.
You have spoken to the owner and the contractor. Now you call the other surveyor and the engineer. Then follow up with an email addressed to the whole gang.
I don't see any ethical problem with reporting your concerns to one and all. In fact, as a professional you would have an obligation to report your concerns even if you were totally uninvolved and noticed something while driving by the site.
I would make the phone call first and follow it up with the letter. Around here, if you only mail the letter, the building will be finished and flooded before the concerned parties will receive it.
If you haven't billed your client yet (the contractor), I would add something like this to the cover letter:
Enclosed, please find a bill for the above-referenced project. Please note that all elevations on the plan are referenced to the original benchmark which may affect the location of the 100 year flood plain. I recommend the elevations be verified prior to construction.
Alerting outside parties after your client told you not too may open up pandora's box and set the project back months and thousands of dollars.
I would call the other surveyor and also write a letter to the engineer and client . 20 years ago I was involved in the same situation , except I was on the other end . Long story short surveyor doing the stake out found the error . the description of the BM we started from was wrong and you know the old saying never work from one BM. But was the only one around for miles . Before GPS...
It was caught and fixed...Had he not called the building would be sitting in the flood zone. I paid money to fix the issue but it was much better than the alternative .. I was very greatful and learned some very usefull lessons on that job.
Your name will be included on the lawsuit after the owner finds out the building is in the flood plain. Even if you can prove it wasn't your fault, it costs money to do that. You'd better do everything you can to head off this disaster.
Forgot to mention I already sent them an email. I might just go do extra effort to double check with flood plain coordinator and also might run in NAVD88 on my own time.
First off I would of not staked anything until the problem was resolved. I would send a Request for information to the engineer and the surveyor and I would wait until the issue was resolved before staking, If they fired you because of the delay it would be an early christmas present. Right now I would call each party and explain that they should wait until this issue is addressed before continuing and then overnight a certified letter to each, CYA
I would suggest sending a cc to your professional board as well as the to the contractor's board. This may encourage the engineer and contractor to properly reflect upon their duties.
When I have been asked to stake out something illegal (mostly because it's in the setback) I have said "OK, but I will send you the contractor, the architect and the owner a letter saying 'I'll put a stake anywhere you ask, but I strongly advise that you not build on it as it may be illegal.'" After that I think it's the contractor's call what to do. I have lost a few clients that way but I think I'm covered and in a place where non compliance is the norm rather than the exception, I manage to keep most clients.
> We were asked to stake out a new building. Scope was to do following:
>
> 1. Stake property corners
> 2. Stake 4 corners of new building
> 3. Set bench mark tied to the topo survey
>
> When I finished the survey I noticed that the BM set by the original surveyor might not be tied to NAVD88 which is what our flood plain maps are tied to, and the site is in the 100 year floodplain. In addition, the building grade shown by the engineer is 92.00 feet, which is exactly the level of the 100-year floodplain, which, in my opinion should not be done.
>
> I am hired by the contractor, and I alerted the contractor. He told me that he checked with the owner, and the owner said to leave it where it is. I emailed them again and recommended against doing this job without a certified NAVD88 elevation and also recommended putting building exactly at same level of floodplain, assuming their bm is right. He said they were moving on and doing it just like the plans. I informed them that my contract obligations had been completed, and they thanked me for my work.
>
> But they may be about to mess up by doing this. Should I call their engineer?
Interesting situation. How do you know the BM elevation may not be tied to NAVD88? Isn't it the building owners responsibility when building in a floodplain to obtain the proper municipal permits prior to even obtaining a building permit? I would find it hard to believe if it wasn't.
It sounds to me like you satisfied your contractual obligation to the contractor. It also appears to me that you made an effort to identify some of the possible issues you encountered with the contractor. Did any of this get documented? If not I would fire the contractor off and email and letter identifying what you have already alerted them to and call it a day. How much extra effort is one expected to do on a project like this?
That said, if I knew the original surveyor I would give him a courtesy call about the situation even with you're answer from the contractor.
I dont think that really will cover you when standing in front of the judge and he asks why when you knew the buiding was in violation, that you staked it anyways. He will find that you failed to perform your duties in a professional manner and likely are liable for damages...it's your duty as a professional to know more than either the contractor or owner and to refuse to act unethically. They, however have no such duty. just my 2 cents
By making your concerns known to the contractor you have thrust yourself into the situation. You went beyond what was required of the contract, voluntarily, and are now liable for more than what was mentioned in the contract and to more people than the contractor. I would make traceable, verifiable contact with all affected parties at this point. But, you better have reasonable evidence for the concerns. If not, you have already gone too far.
Run, Don't walk, away from this project! I would not step into this "lawsuit waiting to happen". flood issues are one of most potentially litigious services we provide to our clients. If there is an elevation error or a failure to follow-up on a known problem and the project gets built, people may die. I can't think of a better example of protecting, or in your case, not protecting the public. That is our biggest responsibility as surveyors. I would try to determine what freeboard is required by your local zoning administrator or building inspector, and, if this building as staked is not in compliance, then make everyone involved aware (IN WRITING!) If the owner is still insisting that it be laid out incorrectly then don't touch it.
I agree. Call first, email(if possible) all parties, follow up with a letter.
Thanks, all for the input.
I am letting the client know that Louisiana State Law set up the engineering/surveying registration laws to protect the public from danger to life and property, and that I see this as a threat to property and need to notify the engineer who designed the project to alert him. It would seem that an email trail with that in it would make it hard for them to tell me not to do it.
I had documented it in email the full way, but they are ignoring it. Maybe this will stop it. In addition this weekend, on my own time I am going to run in a benchmark from a NAVD88 control. I already know the recommended freeboard is 1 foot in our parish, although it is only a recommendation. I will explain to them that a duck landing in the water when it is a flood plain level will cause a wave that will flood the floor.