State of Surveying

there are many surveying services available. maybe property or boundary surveys pay are low in your state but have you tried other types of surveying services? have you gone into engineering surveys or bathymetry surveys?

in my country the Philippines, most "unlicensed" surveyors usually crowd into the boundary surveys for small lots. you know the type of survey where a new lot owner wants to see if what he bought is really correct in area. surveyors doing this type of work nose dived their rates.

when i started out in 1990s, right out of college all I know how to do were these types of surveys using a theodolite & tape. i quickly realised that i would not make rent if all i did were small lot surveys. so i loaned from a bank & bought myself a used total station - Topcon CTS ???. with that i was able to do road engineering for design consultants. this is were the pay started to increase. with increase in income I bought used GPS, echo sounders, digital levels.

now 95% of my income comes from engineering surveys for roads, ports & harbors. the 5% covers the small boundary surveys.

try to branch out & find a higher paying niche.

When I started as a grunt rod man in 1987 (in NH), I was getting $8/hour. Fast forward to the mid to late '90's (guessing there, it could have been in the early 2000's) after I had moved to MD. Surveying was still offering only $8/ hour for rod men. McDonnalds, at that time in a booming economy, was offering $10/ hour.

I have often wondered how many people job-hopped for higher wages since many companies simply could (would?) not keep employees up with the cost of living, let alone provide bonuses/ incentives/ pay increases for the "extras" in life (like new cars, nicer house, whatever).

Supply and Demand

This is the question for the profession. How do you hire keep and perpetuate the profession if there is no money in it? You either charge more so you can make a PROFIT!! or you don't and you become one of the bottom dwellers or worse go out of business. Fact of the matter is that until there is more money in the profession we are not going to attract the cream of the crop and/or the professionals that we desperately need to move forward. This will require all of us to do a gut check on our own selves in terms of professionalism, education, quality and rates.

I have heard the argument many times that we should charge what we are worth. When you do you loose the job because someone is much cheaper. Some say it is supply and demand. Although I somewhat agree with this argument, there seems to be a big disconnect between what surveyors charge and what they think they are worth. Even the bottom dwellers complain about the low pay of surveyors, yet they are part of the problem.

I have also heard an idea, which I wholeheartedly agree with, is to have a firm or someone start a business and perform cost surveys per state. Very similar to what ADA does for dentists. It is not setting prices but every dentist subscribes to this publication to see if their rates are competitive and up to par for the industry. I think this is the best approach. This would at least help not only us as Surveyors stay informed, but our clients would also have access the information and thereby be able to better educate themselves on the industry average for particular surveys. This would help a great deal. So many times we, as Surveyors, let the client determine our fee. (i.e. bankers, realtors who believe that $350 should cover the expense of surveying.) I think in large part it is our own fault for this because we have not educated most clients, answer phishing phone calls and generally bid our work to just get by, which in turn punishes your client and worse your employee. The economy will rebound and it is still surveying. I like the Paden Cash philosophy "you never loose a dime on a job you didn't get"

That is just my .04' worth of info.

Supply and Demand

I have lost a few dimes on jobs I didn't get by putting in time and gas money to drive to the courthouse for proper research, putting together and mailing the proposal, and then getting ridiculously lowballed by another surveyor. I know what you are saying, but it does cost money to not get jobs. In contrast has an attorney or doctor never charged for a job they didn't get after consultation with them?

Supply and Demand

Damn right, CT.

There are surveyors that will survey anything for a hundred dollar bill. Nobody is going to make any money trying to lowball the other guy. Stay away from the work that doesn't require anything but a license.

There are some of us that value our professional time and can charge accordingly because of our experience. You have to find a market that needs your professional services. I've also found that the more professionally you treat the client, the more likely you are to be treated as a professional. Hence, loftier fees.

Florida is simply screwed up. You've seen the $95 elevation certs ads, any where in the state, right? It's because we've allowed the broker driven / contract crew model to take over the boundary work. If there is one thing that needs to be fixed in this state, it's the idea that surveyor in Miami, Tampa, or Orlando can oversee 2 dozen crews a day across the entire state. Not sure how to fix this, but it starts with the BOR.

When I worked for someone else, for nearly 20 years, you are right, the pay did not keep up with inflation. And further, we slowly lost whatever benefits we had when I started.

Getting fired when the economy went south was the best thing that happened to me. I had actually taken a 27% pay cut at that point (in addition to the loss of benefits), and was moving in the wrong direction. Now, 4 and 1/2 years later, I'm solo, with a robot and RTK, low overhead, no payments, and actually feel like I'm getting ahead of the inflation curve with what I can afford to pay myself.

But this is not a solution. Working solo, I'm not training anyone. I've often thought of throwing my name into the hat and taking on a UF intern for the summers, but never got around to it. Maybe down the road.

It must truly be exasperating to live in areas where surveyors are a dime a dozen. The only realistic solution is to move to an area of adequate work with fewer alternative surveyors. Then you can tell the client figures that will produce acceptable profits. Not immediate riches, but longtime security.

I do mainly boundary/topo surveys for development. My typical survey is around a 100 acres. I have a couple of decent clients but I really need some other type of work to smooth everything out.

I feel like if the BOR handed out suspension/revoke penalties as opposed to a few thousand dollars and probation this might change surveying, at least in Florida.

I feel like the low ballers can charge 175-250 dollars for a small boundary or 500 dollars for a small ALTA because they are cheating their profession/client. Measure the building, pull a tape to the visual boundary line, all corners found even if there is nothing in. They rarely get called on it and when they do they simply cut a check. The product I have seen repeatedly is one that they could do 3-4 ALTA surveys a day or 10 small lot surveys per crew.

Supply and Demand

J.Penry, I understand that the time you put into a proposal is lost. I also have had that feeling/situation on projects only to be delivered to the table of sour tastes and bad feelings towards the 'lowballers'. But, I think that if you stick to your guns, make proper adjustments as much as you can in terms of price without sacrificing quality that the clients will realize that they didn't get what they had ordered. And it will bring in business in the future. If not, then you don't really want a job where price is the only concern. Those clients usually tend to be IMPOSSIBLE to work for. Please don't misconstrue this as a I am judging your philosophy or business model or the like. I know some really good surveyors who aren't charging enough right now because of fear of the lost job. I understand that feeling quite well. But I am not you and you are not me so you have to do what you think is best for you.

I started a bit before you CM but have had a very different financial experience. I won;t get into the specifics but at a minimum every other year for the past 20 my wage and most of those around me have gone up. Are there others in the area that have opposite experiences or ones similar to yours? I'm sure there are. But for me and the companies I have worked for my experience is certainly not like yours.

I have my own company and run solo for the most part. So I don't get paid hourly per say. I was just stating that the standard wage scale has not changed for 15 years for the central florida region.

UF Geomatics Grad?

Where did you get your degree?

> there are many surveying services available. maybe property or boundary surveys pay are low in your state but have you tried other types of surveying services? have you gone into engineering surveys or bathymetry surveys?
>
> in my country the Philippines, most "unlicensed" surveyors usually crowd into the boundary surveys for small lots. you know the type of survey where a new lot owner wants to see if what he bought is really correct in area. surveyors doing this type of work nose dived their rates.
>
> when i started out in 1990s, right out of college all I know how to do were these types of surveys using a theodolite & tape. i quickly realised that i would not make rent if all i did were small lot surveys. so i loaned from a bank & bought myself a used total station - Topcon CTS ???. with that i was able to do road engineering for design consultants. this is were the pay started to increase. with increase in income I bought used GPS, echo sounders, digital levels.
>
> now 95% of my income comes from engineering surveys for roads, ports & harbors. the 5% covers the small boundary surveys.
>
> try to branch out & find a higher paying niche.

This post explains much of the your position under the client rant thread [msg]192010[/msg] regarding the survey showing 60 vs 66 acres. In the U.S. what you describe above is reversed. Only licensed surveyors may make property boundary surveys. The construction surveying is often completed by unlicensed surveyors working from control established and certified by Professional Surveyors. In Ohio they must be employees of the construction contractor. Only Licensed Professional Surveyors are permitted to contract for surveying services.

Only Professional Surveyors may testify to the surveying procedures and evidence discovered or set during a property boundary survey. In the U.S. boundary surveying demands more experience than basic construction layout. In addition to basic measurements extensive background in local survey history and boundary law are required to obtain a license.

Most, thankfully not all, Civil Engineering degrees have reduced the surveying content to a theory of measurement course. In most states Professional Civil Engineers may complete construction layout and may not engage in property boundary surveys unless they are also Professional Surveyors.

> I have often wondered how many people job-hopped for higher wages since many companies simply could (would?) not keep employees up with the cost of living, let alone provide bonuses/ incentives/ pay increases for the "extras" in life (like new cars, nicer house, whatever).

I've been surveying since 1969 and have never owned a new car or a house. For most it's not a big money making profession.