So I thought I'd buy a new total station with long-range reflectorless ranging ability. Apparently, there are not very many to choose from. Over the years, the few times I've intermittently used any of the instruments made by Sokkia or Topcon, I've been severely unimpressed by how they're put together. The optics are crap, unlike any Zeiss instrument I've ever owned; the cases seem to be designed to last six months, unlike those of any Zeiss intrument I've ever owned; and the general design of the operator interface seems to be the product of someone who had no idea how the instrument would actually be used.
Today, I rented both a Sokkia and a Topcon. Actually, the instrument said it was one of the Sokkia CX series, but that so happens to be the Topcon ES series with a different paint job. I was struck by how relatively good the EDM was, how substandard the telescope optics were, how sloppy and poorly thought out the motion screws were, and generally how the few advantages of the instrument seem to come with as many annoying drawbacks. Since when did figuring out where to place the motion screws on a total station become some indeterminate problem?
I can understand that shipping one's entire product line with these cheapass cases that will last for several months is a tradtion that must be upheld. I mean just because the designers at Zeiss actually figured out how to make a functional case that would outlast the instrument is no reason to go copying them, right?
Now I'm not intimate with zeiss motion screws, but I do like the wild/leica method of left hand vertical and right hand horizontal tangent adjustment.
What I could never tolerate in any instrument, is sloppy tangent adjustment and what i have learned to love is leica's varible speed adjustment for both motions and optics.
Maybe I've been spoiled by wild?
> Now I'm not intimate with zeiss motion screws, but I do like the wild/leica method of left hand vertical and right hand horizontal tangent adjustment.
I'll bite. Where do you put the data collector when you need both hands free just to point the instrument at a target? Do you hang it back up on the tripod and then take it off again to plug in the descriptor for the point? The Zeiss design was the rational one of having both Hz and V motions on the side of the alidade so that the same hand could adjust both. I believe they pioneered that arrangement on the Th2 one-second theodolite more than forty years ago and it still works very well.
> I'll bite. Where do you put the data collector when you need both hands free just to point the instrument at a target? Do you hang it back up on the tripod and then take it off again to plug in the descriptor for the point?
While I'm not particularly fond of the Leica knob layout -- I spent so many years with Topcons that I always get confused on those rare occasions that I manually operate my Leica -- I long ago decided to hang the data collector on the tripod instead of holding it in my hand. At first I was concerned about the effect pushing all those buttons would have on instrument stability, but that's never seemed to be a problem.
>I long ago decided to hang the data collector on the tripod instead of holding it in my hand. At first I was concerned about the effect pushing all those buttons would have on instrument stability, but that's never seemed to be a problem.
Yeah, but don't you have to endlessly take it off the tripod to enter the descriptor for the shot unless you're just surveying a whole bunch of points with the same descriptor? The motions on the Sokkia/Topcon instrument required a reach-around to the other side of the alidade for F2 pointings which was just bizarre. It was as if the designers of the instrument were concerned that someone might forget which was the Hz and which the V unless they made it difficult to get to one or the other.
Oh, probably as annoying was the feature of the instrument that produced a high-pitched beep whenever it measured a range, as if the operator was blind and needed the audio cue. It seems just like a waste of batteries to me.
> It seems just like a waste of batteries to me.
The beep or the Topcon? I'd have to agree with you on the latter...
> > It seems just like a waste of batteries to me.
>
> The beep or the Topcon? I'd have to agree with you on the latter...
To give the Sokkia/Topcon CX/ES its due, the EDM seems to be excellent. The mechanical stuff, though, not so much. I was shocked that such a crummy telescope was put on that instrument. And who would have thought that you'd have to switch the display back and forth just to do something as routine as seeing what the Horizontal Angle, Horizontal Distance, and Height Difference is? The geniuses who designed the instrument opted to use a new style of six-pin connector instead of the old Hirose six-pin connector that both Sokkia and Topcon had used since forever. So I had to book all the observations today and that was much harder than it should have been.
My Topcon GPT3005LW has the vertical tangent screw on the objective side of the right alidade when in face direct. It was weird at first but I got used to it. Well I was used to it; I haven't used the instrument in a long time. It is just sitting in its box.
The Topcon boxes are better than the Leica boxes.
The Trimble S6 box is oriented vertically (top load) which is ok on a flat street but kind of inconvenient on a rough forest traverse. It has backpack straps and you can sit on it, both of which are convenient.
> The Topcon boxes are better than the Leica boxes.
>
> The Trimble S6 box is oriented vertically (top load) which is ok on a flat street but kind of inconvenient on a rough forest traverse. It has backpack straps and you can sit on it, both of which are convenient.
The two-part Zeiss cases are hands down the best I've ever used and would be fine for a relatively light instrument like the Sokkia/Topcon I rented today. Instead, what came with the instrument was this little toy case that was obviously not going to go the distance and the rest of the case, including the interior was made with about a six-month life span in mind. Real crap.
Everything is getting cheaper. Tribrachs are made to last 6 months at most.
I don't know if it is even possible to buy a decent tribrach new anymore.
The old Wild T2 tribrachs are bullet-proof, they last forever.
> Everything is getting cheaper. Tribrachs are made to last 6 months at most.
What about pseudo-features? That instrument has onboard data collection. 'Kay, but who would ever use it since it would be completely impractical to enter point descriptors via the limited keyboard?
my experience with Sokkia cases have been different.
Mine are 21 yrs and 5yrs old, and the cases are both in good condition. I use the cases as a step for awkward setups, quite often on rocky ground. I have used several topcon instruments while working for construction companies and can say the same for their cases. I tried doing that with a geodimeter case and it now has a crack on the top surface. I find the optics on the sokkia 4230 and the Geodimeter 4400 and Lieca TS02 to be comparible. I cant say much about the other models, but the 4230 has both the knobs on one side so I can use it one handed on either face.
The old Sokkia cases from the 1990s were tough.
I don't know about the current ones, though.
> The old Sokkia cases from the 1990s were tough.
>
> I don't know about the current ones, though.
Well, it turns out that I do. The case that the Sokkia/Topcon CX/SE came with had molded plastic tabs that were part of the locking mechanism. Yeah, not some sort of durable metal fastener but a plastic snap on a thin section of molded plastic serving as the hinge. The interior of the case was not a durable, relatively water-resistant plastic foam but something that looked as if it would be used in throwaway packaging. I don't recall the case having a sealing gasket to prevent water from entering it, so if you have to walk out in the rain, you probably will need a case to carry the case in.
The Leica 30 series guns have not two but three motion screws, but may be a bit more instrument than you are looking for.
For a basic gun I have always liked Nikon, they are light and easy to use. The EDM can burn through woods pretty good, which is nice, not sure how the reflectorless stacks up but I have never not gotten a shot using it.
I have a old Zeiss that I can not get past the tilt telescope screen if you are looking for a parts gun, its got a case and some newer batteries.
> The Leica 30 series guns have not two but three motion screws, but may be a bit more instrument than you are looking for.
>
> For a basic gun I have always liked Nikon, they are light and easy to use. The EDM can burn through woods pretty good, which is nice, not sure how the reflectorless stacks up but I have never not gotten a shot using it.
>
> I have a old Zeiss that I can not get past the tilt telescope screen if you are looking for a parts gun, its got a case and some newer batteries.
Oh, my nearly 20-year-old Zeiss Elta 50 is still running fine. I've just been looking around for a reflectorless instrument and have been severely underwhelmed by the low quality of what's available. The prices are apparently intended to remind the shopper of the higher quality equipment that once was available, while delivering what look to be disposable instruments.
The crappy telescope optics give the game away.
> > > It seems just like a waste of batteries to me.
> >
> > The beep or the Topcon? I'd have to agree with you on the latter...
>
> To give the Sokkia/Topcon CX/ES its due, the EDM seems to be excellent.
meh.... The first time that I used a Geodimeter back in 1991 was when I was truly impressed. Point at the target and the distance was already displayed before you could even pull your eye away from the scope to look. Well built. Optic weren't nearly as good as the T-2 that it replaced. But the edm blew away the top mount Topcon edm. And it would shoot up to 12,000 ft if you dared to go that far. I tried it once just out of sheer curiosity to see what kind of range it had. This was early '90's technology.
So the Topcon GPT 9000A that I use now really doesn't impress me that much. The edm doesn't seem any faster. It does have reflectorless which is nice. But they all have that these days. Can't track worth a crap.
The data collector itself, the Topcon FC-2500 seems to be a fairly well built collector. The software however is just short of being a horror story. Stuff like when you change the RH and take a shot, it records the old RH instead of the new one until the NEXT shot... That'll mess with ya a little until you realize what it's doing....or NOT doing. Then it's just disbelief and denial after that...
Oh, and the resection program.... It sometimes gets confused and forgets where you are at when you are recording your second set of observations face 2. Nice. Do all over again. It did it to me twice in a row today. Same setup. And it is slow. My 1990's technology HP48 is faster in quite a few instances.
Or when it crashes and will not let you open up the job back up so you end up frantically pulling the job file off of the data collector and opening it up with Toplink on your computer to salvage the data. Then a week later, Hey! Guess what?! It'll open the job back up now.... WTH?? I'm on my third job file-same job.
Those are just a couple of the many "glitches" it has. Refer to the recent Topsurv thread for another example.....
Yeah, I'm really not a Topcon fan either...
> Yeah, I'm really not a Topcon fan either...
It's just weird that Tokyo Optical (aka Topcon) has for years been able to make fairly good EDM modules without apparently managing to build a decent telescope. I guess that the surveying instrument departments of most of these manufacturers are such a small backwater of the whole operation that nobody in the company cares if they're making crap. Zeiss was an anomaly in so many ways. I look back at how carefully even the limited production accessories were put together and marvel at the level of quality throughout the whole line. They correctly concluded that the US market wasn't willing to pay for quality and withdrew. So we're left with crap.
Disposable. My electronics tech said the same thing. Certain transistors, diodes, outputs etc. are getting harder and harder to source. Everything is leaning towards disposable. Like your iphone. When the built in battery dies, simply throw it away and buy a new one.
