So, how do the pros do this?>Set up over Bound!
> For what it's worth, the previous statement about "99.99% of the surveyors don't set up over monuments" is not correct.
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> I try to set up on original bounds, always, if possible. It's much stronger to have the control part of your closed traverse than as a side shot. Anyone who says differently is just plain wrong.
I wouldn't say it's much stronger. Sometimes, but not always. Strength of figure works in to the equation, yes? If I have two or more monuments that are part of a boundary that are relatively close to one another, I would prefer to observe them radially from a single traverse rather than traverse through them with compounding setup errors and sighting errors.
If I can't set up on it Try reading it again
> don't call the hall. That's what my brother would say. 3' seems far enough away from the tree to me. When you can't get your head in there is when you can't do it. The gun would have to be dang near touching the tree. Keep trying, buddy. If I had the time, I'd come out there and set that gun up for you.
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> Also, anyone who avoids setting on corner points 99.99% of the time is doing themselves a great disservice. And never setting on pipes seems a bit exclusionary as well. Jam a nail in beside it if it makes you feel better. We've surveyed the offset line as well and measured over to hang flagging.
The opening post states that it is 3 inches from the tree and buried in the roots. Not 3 ft.
The braggadocious comments that one reads here are true examples of something or the other to put it nicely...
When I started surveying; when the data collector was a field book and pencil; there were 3 ways to measure something:
- On line
- On an offset
- Set random points and calculate the measurement with triangulation
In that order.
If at all possible, you sat up on the corners and measured between them.
If not, then you could get creative with offsets. You might need to incorporate a little trig, but you usually could get by turning 90's
At a last resort, you could set random points, turn angles and measure distances; but you avoided this when ever you could.
Today, the normal way to locate your survey is with random points. Pick a good spot, where you can see lots of stuff and start pressing the buttons. The data collector takes care of all the calculations and will spit out any number you want. Be careful though; garbage in garbage out.
Or better yet; get out your RTN/RTK; plumb it up over your point and hit the button. With the right equipment, you can look at your point in google earth within a matter of minutes.
We are living in amazing times my friend; a long way from the transit and tape....:plumbbob:
Like Carl said, it is extremely rare for us "pros" to occupy the boundary corners. They are usually right adjacent to fences or items that can't be moved. Where possible, locate the corners from two different positions rather than single side shots. If you do single side shots, double your angles.
If I can't set up on it
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> And never setting on pipes seems a bit exclusionary as well. Jam a nail in beside it if it makes you feel better. We've surveyed the offset line as well and measured over to hang flagging.
As a matter of course- i don't set an instrument up on something that isn't control quality- and I don't set pipes for control points- do you?
As you are aware because of your prowess in geography, Texas is a very big state with a variety of topographic features.
So, how do the pros do this?>Set up over Bound!
Well, you know what male cattle are full of, don't you?
Seriously, years ago I read something that left me thinking that was a requirement in Texas. It made no sense to me because of how nearly impossible it would be. That's why the thought got stuck in my head. Sounded a lot like something the Federal government and it's bureaucratic mishmash would dream up. Sort of like in the early days of OSHA attempting to write regulations for farm workers when they initially had proposed a requirement that no farm worker should ever be more than 200 feet from a toilet.
Trees happen in a lot of places, maybe more along the fence because of the birds. I don't think birds spread maples, oaks, buckeyes, etc. Fewer sprouts away from the fence tend to survive due to cultivation or being more "in the way" of whatever else goes on in the open.
I ran across a crusty old timer once doing a road job using one ancient looking transit set up in the middle of the road shooting the p-line for alignment. Cars were slamming on the brakes and swerving to avoid hitting the old coot. I couldn't help myself and stopped and asked him what he was doing. Very matter of fact he stated that he needed to occupy all of PI's and turn these angles to establish the alignment, no trig needed that way I guess. I just shook my head and wished him a good day, just didn't see the point in asking him if he'd ever heard of a data collector and doing a random traverse and judging from his apparent age, who the heck was I, this young whippersnapper to be questioning his tried and true ways.
As for the trees along the fence, birds pooping seeds seems plausible but more likely the saplings along the fences just don't get mowed or cut back so get a chance to grow. I have to clear my fences with a pruner every few years or the trees will grow up all intertwined with the wire.
If I can't set up on it
When performing a control survey, I will only set up on control points. While doing a Boundary Survey, I will set up on the corner whenever it is practical. In the old days, some surveyors would shoot a side shot corner from two traverse points. Traverse points were just a means to get you to the next corner.
If I can't set up on it
In the old days, some surveyors would shoot a side shot corner from two traverse points.
Some surveyors still do that today; with Least Squares it tightens things up!
Ken
When ever possible I prefer to shoot as many corners as I can with GPS, there is always one or two you cant get with GPS, then setup on a corner and backsite another found corner. Survey in the corners and take any side shots I need for trees or powerpoles etc....
Its nice when you use the same data collector for GPS and the total station.
Sometimes I do set a CP, but I always back site a found corner.
When stalking a property line I set up on one corner and backsite the corner of the same line I am stalking.
I agree with the above statement it always closes better when you occupy the property corners.
I love this place! What a spectrum of thoughts, ideas, attitudes, and experience.
RADAR's is particularly succinct in that it describes well how to do it with legacy equipment (like I'm currently using), and also touches on how it's done with more current tools (That's next, for me...stay tuned, lol).
I've elected to start with Ghilani/Wolf, which also has some of both old and new instruction and theory, but there's no book out there that can match the stories and opinions of the folks here! You guys rock!
How is a found property corner less accurate than a set control point? I don't see a problem with occupying a found point. Am I missing something or is this just some weird OCD surveyor thing?
So, how do the pros do this?>Set up over Bound!
Had a party chief made me set up on every iron . I don't care were it was . I remember hacking up the 36" evergreen to get over the iron . I said you know we can shoot this from a traverse . He said if its not part of the main traverse how do you no its 100% correct , if its a side shot could be wrong . He had a point.
I didn't say a thing about a corner being less accurate than a property corner, I implied that it isn't very common anymore. I didn't realize that the original poster was a surveyor because his question seemed like something that a land owner, or someone that knows just enough to be dangerous would ask. I occasionally occupy a corner for the reason that somebody else stated (It's easier to to set up on a corner and backsight one to stake out a bunch of others). But, like I said... it's very, very, very rare. I shoot in a whole lot more corners from random control than property monuments. I like to set control points because if something gets moved (it has happened) that there is an extra set of points to use to replace things. And how often do your points end up being EXACTLY on top of each other. There's always that little bit of slop between calculated plat points and field points, so I prefer to set up over 60D mag nails.
My mentor always tried to set up on property corners if it was practical. I do think he thought it was better to have corners in the control loop, but there was another good reason as well. We always opened up and marked all boundary lines, it was part of the price. If you set on the corner you could compute to the next corner and turn directly down the line and open it up as you traverse. That way, when we came back to mark the line, the line would already be open and we didn't have to bush out a line twice. It could be a big time saver, especially in the jungles of southside VA.
If I can't set up on it
Absolutely, me included. Although, I can't say that I do it at every corner. Using Least Squares is one of the best changes in procedure that I have implemented in the last 10 years. However, the concern is that some surveyors have lost the fact that we are using it as a tool to perform a boundary survey and not patting ourselves on the back for creating a great network. It is a tool and not the end itself.
> I'm "re-tracing" the boundary. I've traversed to the corner; I'm turning the corner, and measuring the angle between from whence I came, to the next line...a stone fence line.
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> The hint about using trig to set up on another point, measure the angle from there, and extrapolate the location of the corner sounds like it might work.
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> I surmise that the question has to do more with using a total station, with which one could do something similar to an offset shot to a point on the next line adjacent to the pipe, but I'm not sure.
Not only "might" it work, it "will" work, every day, twice on Sunday. VERY seldom do any of us ACTUALLY OCCUPY the corner. You're killing yourself.
> I thought I read something about how in Texas you are virtually compelled to set up over all the monuments or it's not a true survey. That might work on the Staked Plains but it sure wouldn't work in my part of the world with hundreds of 100 year-old hedge/bois d'arc/osage orange trees directly on most major property lines.
No. The idea was that "radial surveys" were illegal because you had no positional tolerance calculation on the corner. Having one on the loop did not make one on the corner. There are always other ways to beat the animal.
In the Piney Woods of East Texas, occupying the corners, unless you're in a subdivision, doesn't work well.
