By large, I mean larger than say, 25 acres.
I figured I'd start a new thread since most people in my old thread seemed to confuse setting up a traverse with the actual running of the traverse.
Setting up the traverse involves recon, flagging up evidence, installing traverse stakes or traverse points, cutting line between traverse points and sideshots. No equipment is necessary other than a brush cutting implement, hammer, metal locator, compass, possible a hip chain, GPS or cloth tape.
For surveys smaller that 100 or so acres, one man can usually set up at least the woods portion of the traverse in one day, negating the need to waste time hiking out from deep in the woods, then back in the next day.
The same thing goes for running the traverse. A 2 man crew can usually run at least the woods portion of a 100 acre survey in one day starting and ending on a road.
While some easy surveys that are all fields or very open hardwoods might be possible to set up and run at the same time, if the parcel is wooded, I believe it would take much longer set up and run at the same time; at least in my neck of the woods.
I agree.
I would rather see what is out there first then traverse it later. Sometimes we need to cut first just so we can walk through there then cut more later. It gets pretty thick sometimes.
What is really cool is to get an inmate fire crew. When they are done you can almost drive the truck down the line. They will do what we call "low shoe line" if we ask for it.
It Saves Time To Run GPS While Setting Up Large Traverses
Most often the clearest sky view areas are also the most accessible. At a minimum static GPS paired points "here", "there" and "somewhere else" allow you to start at several points and work your way into the deeper woods. Without rock rows, ancient fence posts or nubs of wire in trees, you may have to pin down your search area better than just a walking reconn allows.
Also with modern total stations there is much less reason to worry about balanced traverse legs. If I am concerned about a short connecting leg, (such concern does not develope until after tieing into it), no problem. The cleared line usually allows continuing past the short traverse point to a new point about equal to the short leg from the next traverse point. Then you simply tie into the 4 corners of that flat trapezoid in your traverse. Because you know from starting at multiple known GPS points exactly where the next traverse point is you can sometimes close the traverse with a very flat triangle. Because I put traverse ponts close to existing monuments it is also possible to locate that monument from the other traverse point of a short closing leg. Even if that marker is not comfortably occupiable, the triangular tie improves the geometry.
I will tie into a few corners of a filed map subdivision along my PQ and prove it with GPS occupation of multiple points at the far end of same plat without traversing through the whole thing. On remote plat ties I do try to work from a GPS triple set where feasible. It is within reason to occupy one or more of those 2 or 3 GPS points and get an equal amount of nearby markers.
If reconn takes several days it gives you more opportunity to tie in several more GPS points. The bonus is that by doing so while you are in the woods your GPS occupations will most likely be twice as long as neccessary, thereby improving the precision.
An off the wall question, on a long traverse through the woods how many will leave tripods behind for the next day?
Depending on the area I sometimes leave them standing, or I might forget about one when I am working with 3, and have found them still well centered over the point. Usually though they get laid flat alongside a downed tree. I am less likely to do it during deer season, but then I am also much less likely to be surveying.
BTW, I have worked on numerous 100 acre surveys where the woods traverse can easily run 2 or 3 days with 2 men. A 100 acre parcel, especially an oddball shape can easily require encompassing 100 to 200 hundred additional acres. I have even worked with a 4 man crew when the plan was to get through the remote area in one day no matter what. Four tripods with the ahead man always setting up traverse and somebody always picking up and carrying.
Paul in PA
It Saves Time To Run GPS While Setting Up Large Traverses
We never use more than one set of legs for woods traverses, just put the traverse points on top of the tall stakes and keep the rod man ahead of the instrument man. The tall stakes allow backsighting without a third crew member. You can do as many as 70 setups in a 10 hour day with a 2 man crew. We only use flush points where we have to come back to do sets.
No Tall Stakes In PA or NJ
I can recall a surveyor I worked with years ago getting sued. A neighbors dog castrated itself on a stake with a nail. Flush or buried is standard. One can come back in 20 years and tie into a buried traverse. Plus even though the surveys are in heavy woods the land value is far above woodlands.
I note a recent board post on increased farm values. I can recall farm auctions around here more than 30 years ago where farmers outbid developers for tracts.
In addition farmland preservation surveys are to ALTA specs.
Paul in PA
Not necessarily on the time. Temperature and terrain play a large role. We set up a lot of line, and thick brush and high temps will hamper production.
Best terrain and temp is now and in a river bottom untouched by timber production. You can cruise big time then and maybe set up 150 acres or more in a day. Otherwise, I've seen brush that made two men whipped by 10 acres.
It Saves Time To Run GPS While Setting Up Large Traverses
ah yes the Willey Turner method--it works best if a fast traverse is what you want--i called it the "jig pole" method--
i'm one of those guys that can do the 70 plus setups in a 7-8 hr day--i use 2 other guys front and rear- depending on terrain a few hrs i can get 10 setups in an hr with 1-2 sideshots from each, if you have a front man that can hustle when you need him to it goes quickley--i of course use hubs, drill holes pk's and run the walls where ever i can--but most young bucks couldn't fathom setting up, walking, taking side shots, and keeping notes or a data collector in say 6 minutes, especially when you walk 3-500 feet in woods between points--boy , i miss doing that !!! there have been only a few times in my career when i had a crew that worked like a machine-
the christenson boys from moran/al swanson come to mind, the brookline crew at TFM, my crew at durgin eng in portsmouth, my crew in new london, my guys at CLD in manchester, surveying becomes a symphony when everyone clicks and its fun as well- with 44 yrs behind me i chuckle when i see a survey crew struggling to get a 2 acre topo/boundary in town in a days time----regards, TDD
TDD - Welcome back
> ah yes the Willey Turner method--it works best if a fast traverse is what you want--i called it the "jig pole" method--
>
> i'm one of those guys that can do the 70 plus setups in a 7-8 hr day--i use 2 other guys front and rear- depending on terrain a few hrs i can get 10 setups in an hr with 1-2 sideshots from each, if you have a front man that can hustle when you need him to it goes quickley--i of course use hubs, drill holes pk's and run the walls where ever i can--but most young bucks couldn't fathom setting up, walking, taking side shots, and keeping notes or a data collector in say 6 minutes, especially when you walk 3-500 feet in woods between points--boy , i miss doing that !!! there have been only a few times in my career when i had a crew that worked like a machine-
> the christenson boys from moran/al swanson come to mind, the brookline crew at TFM, my crew at durgin eng in portsmouth, my crew in new london, my guys at CLD in manchester, surveying becomes a symphony when everyone clicks and its fun as well- with 44 yrs behind me i chuckle when i see a survey crew struggling to get a 2 acre topo/boundary in town in a days time----regards, TDD
"surveying becomes a symphony when everyone clicks"
I've missed comments like that. Welcome back Ted.B-)
TDD - Welcome back
> "surveying becomes a symphony when everyone clicks"
>
> I've missed comments like that. Welcome back Ted.B-)
"I can survey with a banjo because I know how---tdd
hey ted..
good to see your name up in lights again.
No Tall Stakes In PA or NJ
> I can recall a surveyor I worked with years ago getting sued. A neighbors dog castrated itself on a stake with a nail. Flush or buried is standard. One can come back in 20 years and tie into a buried traverse. Plus even though the surveys are in heavy woods the land value is far above woodlands.
>
> I note a recent board post on increased farm values. I can recall farm auctions around here more than 30 years ago where farmers outbid developers for tracts.
>
> In addition farmland preservation surveys are to ALTA specs.
>
> Paul in PA
Musta been one tall dog. Our traverse nails are usually 3' above the ground. If you are worried about liability, the hundreds or thousands of punji sticks around the traverse loop seem far more dangerous the an 8p box galvinized nail on top of a stake.
The tall stake method is so fast, we could resurvey it every 20 years and still be ahead of the game. Plus, after 20 years, you should relocate the irons anyway instead of relying on old coordinate data from 8" floppies.
Can you draw me a picture?
> Our traverse nails are usually 3' above the ground. If you are worried about liability, the hundreds or thousands of punji sticks around the traverse loop seem far more dangerous the an 8p box galvinized nail on top of a stake.
>
> The tall stake method is so fast, we could resurvey it every 20 years and still be ahead of the game. Plus, after 20 years, you should relocate the irons anyway instead of relying on old coordinate data from 8" floppies.
Most use 60d or such spikes flush in the ground around here. In the old days we used 18"x2"x2" hubs and tacks. What are you setting the 8p nail on top of that is stable?
Not triing to be critical, always looking for new ideas.
Thank You, Scott
Can you draw me a picture?
> > Our traverse nails are usually 3' above the ground. If you are worried about liability, the hundreds or thousands of punji sticks around the traverse loop seem far more dangerous the an 8p box galvinized nail on top of a stake.
> >
> > The tall stake method is so fast, we could resurvey it every 20 years and still be ahead of the game. Plus, after 20 years, you should relocate the irons anyway instead of relying on old coordinate data from 8" floppies.
>
> Most use 60d or such spikes flush in the ground around here. In the old days we used 18"x2"x2" hubs and tacks. What are you setting the 8p nail on top of that is stable?
> Not triing to be critical, always looking for new ideas.
>
> Thank You, Scott
Either a 1x1x4' hardwood stake, of just sawn off a sapling and drive a nail in the top.
As the vast majority of traverse stakes are only occupied once, the stakes only need to be stable for the time to forsight, occupy and backsite. If we expect to reoccupy, we will set flush points. Closures seem to com out typical using this method. While the stability is greater w/ flush points, having a tall stake minimizes optical plumb error as the TS is only a foot or two above the nail.
