Rim & Inverts

For years I've done those calcs in red pencil on the sketch in the fieldbook.

Now our company has a LISP routine with which you click on the rim shot and tell it the number of pipes. It then cycles through asking the direction, pipe diameter and measure down to each pipe. When you've entered it all it makes an annotated label, completed with leadered arrow. Text style and layering set by the LISP.

Would add to your recorded data, where on the rim you are using as the rim reference, IE- "punch mark on North Rim". Many lid rims are not level, but set on a slant. I hand enter everything using data taken from a field book, so how to enter that data in your Cad program needs to come from others.
jud

Hi,
we note depths and sizes of pipes on a plot in the field.
We made a VBA routine in Acad to do the annotation of the levels of each pipe.
You select the elevation (text layer in our acad) of the rim and key in the different dephts for the pipes wich are labeled x-y-z for outgoing flow and a,b,c, ... for incoming flow. by selecting the storm/sewage/mixed buttons you select in wich layers/colors the annotation comes. We have a number of layers for these texts. Works good for us, the calculation is automated so no more mistakes here, but you still have to key in ...
I am playing with the idea to do some programming for our TSC2 datacollector to collect these data in the field,with the E,N,El available one could easily calculate and check for negaitve slopes and contradictions in pipe sizes. Second step is to import manhole data and sewage lines in Acad by means of a script file or a dxf.

Interseting to hear how others deal with this.

Christof.

Mike,

Since you are using Civil 3D you want to look at Point User Defined Properties (UDP).

If you set up the UDP's as CUT Values along with an expression to calc the actual Inv Elevation you can then setup a Label Style to display the inverts.

It works very well and is easy once it all setup. I"m working on a video to demonstrate all this. We just completed a project with over 200 MH/CB structures and this saves significant amount of time and reduces the error of a fat finger calc.

Mike Carris
www.apw-cts.com

I find that surface labels are the most flexible automated style in C3D. What I have done in the past is create multiple false surfaces. Since the RIM elevation would be in the EG surface, no need to create a false surface for that. But I would create an invert surface that was comprised of all my invert elevations. Then I would create a surface spot elevation style that label the EG at the rim and that had a reference text that would allow me to label another surface, specifically in this case the invert. Its dynamic and the chance for human error is a little less.

To create the invert surface I would export all the rim points, renumber them and re-described them. Then use an excel formalu to calculate the invert from the existing rim elevation and save it as a new .csv file, which would then be reimported into the C3D drawing and used in the invert surface.

A little complicated for small jobs, but works well on larger ones.

I wrote a lisp routine that allows you to enter the field data and pick the point on the screen then it will label the mh...Send me your email I pass it on..

djames... send it to mike@apw-cts.com I'd like to check it out. Thanks

> Mike,
>
> Since you are using Civil 3D you want to look at Point User Defined Properties (UDP).
>
> If you set up the UDP's as CUT Values along with an expression to calc the actual Inv Elevation you can then setup a Label Style to display the inverts.
>
> It works very well and is easy once it all setup. I"m working on a video to demonstrate all this. We just completed a project with over 200 MH/CB structures and this saves significant amount of time and reduces the error of a fat finger calc.
>
> Mike Carris
> www.apw-cts.com

Sounds Great Mike! Looking forward to checking that out.

Is there a similar routine in Carlson? I haven't seen it if there is.

I used to shoot and draw all the pipes in the field. Anyone else using this method? I believe it's much less data to deal with after the field work is done.

Another way to do it is to have the crew shoot the center of the manhole, the center of the cover, take a shot on the edge of the rim where you most likely measured that particular invert, adding the invert measurement to the rod height, and doing the same for the pipe flowing 'out' invert. When inputed into cad, this will put the points near the in and out invert locations with the correct elevations. That's the way I've been doing it for 15 years and it works kind of slick.

Quick answer: Civil 3D

-JD-

We do it using field techniques like BeerLegs and with a special feature code library pretty much as Christof describes.

For position, at the hole
One shot for the rim level
One shot for the centre of the lid
One shot for the base of the chamber
One shot (on the surface) for each invert

The code for lid centre prompts for a number of attributes - asset number, pit shape, width or diameter, materials etc

The code for pipe inverts prompts for diameter, materials, asset number of the other end etc.

Then for level we use a Dini - being very careful to use the same point numbers. We will also sometimes get pipe soffit as well as invert if we aren't sure of the diameter

The Dini and TSC3 data are bought together in TBC and we replace the gps heights with the Dini values. That's easy if the points share the same numbers.

Rather than C3D, the combined data then gets taken into 12D - a common surveying package down here which has a lot of features for drainage work - and a number of 12D macros get run against the new data to add it to the existing, draw the linework etc

Just send them a short E-mail (support at carlsonsw.com)describing how you want the routine to work.

They will more than likely include it in the next release.

That has been my experience.

Worked out something like this for a US Army Corps of Engineers project about 1992. We were required to create a 3D MicroStation file with all inverts connected to the next structure. Also required was a database of all the structures, connecting conduits type diameter and flow line elevation.

We used the center of manhole x,y coordinates and rim elevation as base data. Copied comma delimited file CSV of x,y coordinates down the spreadsheet (Lotus Symphony) for the number of inverts and entered measure down to compute invert elevation. Each invert line also showed in or out and comment of dia, material and connecting structure. Lotus Symphony also had data base capability to satisfy that requirement.

Invert line entries were setup to duplicate the "Point#,N(y),E(x)Elev(z),comment" format of the cogo program that ran inside MicroStation. Cogo point numbers were assigned in the spreadsheet with an incrementing data fill. These line entries were exported to a text file in CSV format.

Importing them into the cogo inserted an invert cell (block) at center of structure and invert elevation. Creating a figure with cogo point numbers connected all structures with 3D flow lines. Listing the figure gave a sequence through each sewer run. Printing the figure "description" listed bearing and distance center to center of connected manholes. We placed a cell (3D cone) at the center of each flow line to indicate the direction of flow. The invert cells included the comment of dia, material and connecting structure.

Just an outside observation and comment from a guy who has opened and got quite personal with literally thousands of various manholes. Storm, sanitary, combined, water, others... never mattered.

Shoot the rim, I always went with "North rim". Then the field guys do the dirty work, which is really where your liability steps in. Getting the pipe size, invert, and MH structure information are paramount.

Unfortunately I was always that other field guy to do the dirty work. Then again, I was also the PC shooting the stuff, and always ran the rod. Still do now as a solo, even though I think some dummies made manhole covers heavier in the last 20 ys...lol

The key between you're seeming saving cost in mass production, and the potential for double "fat fingered" numbers - is you have duplicate eyeballs of additional skilled people looking at them. If something looks wrong (sometimes yes), then let that 2nd or 3d eyeball toss the red flag. Go fix it.

I created a video that shows how we use Civil 3D to do Subsurface Utility Mapping. It would take a pretty long post to explain everything we do. But in short its all done using Civil 3D with no additional routines. Its a defined workflow along with Setting up Civil 3D Point User Defined Properties, Point Groups, Tool Palettes and a few other features. This is only a 12min video, The full video is 60 mins long and explains it in full detail, I'm working to make the full video available along with the DWT and Tool Palette.

Neat Video, let us know when the full version and the toolpalettes are available.
thanks for sharing,
Christof

Thanks djames

I will be contributing to the cause in honor of djames as soon as cash flow allows.

Thanks for the slick lisp routine.