Right or Wrong

as usual, I agree w/ Don

I participated in a webinar given by a Real Property Attorney. He said what happens is a problem is identified so the property owners talk to their respective Attorneys who tell them not to talk to anyone. They want all communication to go through the Attorneys which turns a problem into a war (likely unnecessary) and of course the billable hours go way up.

He said what the property owners should do is go next door with a bottle of wine in hand and make friends with the neighbor. Then you can resolve the problem for a lot less money.

I don't see how two Surveyors talking will compromise anyone's case. Just do it before the Attorneys get involved and they impose the limit on communication known as Ex-Party or something like that. Funny how Attorney rules drive up the billable hours not to mention discovery, etc. etc. etc.

The Real Property Attorney said he had a case that involved a one foot dispute. He suggested we just put it down the middle and call it good. Of course the parties already hated each other so it went to court and the Judge put it down the middle in the end. It costs a lot more for the Judge to do the obvious than it does for the neighbors to do it.

"I'm not sure why the state statute should require it;"

In Arizona it was because surveyors never talked to each other until a complaint was filed with the Board. It is now the first item in the Board rules.

Right or Wrong - Target

>I called the other surveyor whose attitude was basically like this:
>
> "Paul, when you get done with all your work, you email it to me and I will review it. I do not want to get off my ass and look in my job file to see if I made a three foot error. You do all the work for me"
>
> That pissed me off.
So, instead of detailing your work and calling the other surveyor back (like he had asked), you got "pissed off," and sent the information to the client without giving it a second chance. What's that going to do other than "piss off" the other surveyor. Not only have you gone to the client before resolving it with the other surveyor, you've cut the other surveyor out of the loop and you've withheld evidence from him when you did make the submission.
[sarcasm]
You asked the question... Right or Wrong?[/sarcasm]

JBS

Right or Wrong - Target

> So, instead of detailing your work and calling the other surveyor back (like he had asked), you got "pissed off," and sent the information to the client without giving it a second chance. What's that going to do other than "piss off" the other surveyor. Not only have you gone to the client before resolving it with the other surveyor, you've cut the other surveyor out of the loop and you've withheld evidence from him when you did make the submission.
> [sarcasm]
> You asked the question... Right or Wrong?[/sarcasm]
>
> JBS

[sarcasm]I don't know if it's right or wrong, but any time you can piss off both the client and the other surveyor you're doing something right.[/sarcasm]

Right or Wrong - Target

:good: :good: :good: Only half the obligation accomplished, not good.
jud

This discussion has become a little convoluted. Let me just say that, while a PLS has to adhere to client confidentiality, that must not be allowed to bind a PLS from doing his job, which of course often entails talking to previous PLS's.

I have been asked a time or two to conduct my work kind of on the QT. I tell them that that isn't really a possibility, there is no way I can perform a land survey in secret. As far as your situation goes, I would never allow a client to have that kind of control over my professional decisions.

Now a question for you; what exactly is a "deed line" and why do you desire to show it on your survey?

Stephen

Just a general comment...I think this was a very enlightening discussion. I read the whole thing with fascination and felt proud of my profession for shedding plenty of light on a tricky topic.

Right or Wrong - Stephen

> Now a question for you; what exactly is a "deed line" and why do you desire to show it on your survey?

A 'deed' line is a local term for a metes and bounds described line, or, one that was not created by an agency approved map, like a Tract or Parcel Map. The practice of dividing properties in Los Angeles County by written descriptions was halted around 1960, it was stopped statewide in 1972.

It was not the deed line that I wanted to show on my map, it was the concrete block wall that the deed line is running through and parallel with that I will show on the map.

Right or Wrong - JBS

You sure know how to twist words around JB..typical lawyer bullsh.!t

"...while a PLS has to adhere to client confidentiality..."

I've not heard this before. Is this your opinion or something I've missed for 38 years?

> "...while a PLS has to adhere to client confidentiality..."
>
> I've not heard this before. Is this your opinion or something I've missed for 38 years?

This would be something that you have missed for 38 years.

But,hey... better late than never.

From the NSPS website; http://www.nspsmo.org/
Check out Canon #5

Surveyor's Creed and Canons
As a Professional Surveyor, I dedicate my professional knowledge and skills to the advancement and betterment of human welfare.

Canon 7.
A Professional Surveyor should maintain professional integrity when dealing with members of other professions.

i know it makes sense, but twice it has not worked for me

my first official act as a PLS was to review a conflicting line with another surveyor. nothing was resolved with my phone call. the solution i was presenting was actually my father's solution from 1998, used for a Zoning Board of Appeals Site Plan. what was also nice; it was identical to the line of questioning that the BOR went through at my interview to sit for the PLS exam.

the second time, i left 2 messages, then saw the surveyor in court. interim judgment was just issued. i was right (yes reading it did enhance my ego, the swelling will reduce in a few days).

Right or Wrong - Target

I guess I agree with JB. What you have done is unethical. Your
client is paying for the survey. The adjoiner or his surveyor is not.
There may be questions of long term possession. You are sticking
your neck out and looking to get sued. For the price of a land survey,
you do not need getting sued.

> From the NSPS website; http://www.nspsmo.org/
> Check out Canon #5
> Canon 5.
> A Professional Surveyor should maintain the confidential nature of the surveyor-client relationship.
It says, "confidential nature of the surveyor-client relationship," not "confidential nature of the boundary." There's a big difference between "confidential" information and "privileged" information

Those are two completely different issues. Surveyors are not doctors or attorneys or husband/wife (who have a privilege relationship with their client or each other). Yes, there is information that your client will share with you which should be held in confidence. You're client tells you he needs a survey; you ask what he needs it for. He tells you he's secretly acquiring parcels to consolidate for building a shopping center and doesn't want the neighbors to know or they'll raise the price on him.

There's no way for you to put stealth crews on the ground without raising suspicion. Telling them to just not to talk to anyone is counter to your charge of gathering the necessary boundary information. If you proceed with the survey, you're potentially stuck in a quandary. I'd suggest that the client start by retaining you to do the research necessary to determine the properties to be acquired. You can proceed with your preliminary research and boundary calculations without going on the ground.

Once he's completed his acquisitions or contracting, then you can go on the ground to locate the boundaries. When you're out there, you can gather all the property data from whomever you need. You just can't tell them what the client has planned for the property development (that's confidential information, given to you in confidence).

As a surveyor, I'd say you can't enter a contract with a client that would prevent you from gathering any data necessary to properly determine the boundary location. That includes speaking to landowners and prior owners. Just make sure that you're gathering evidence, not giving out confidential information.

JBS

It seems pretty simple to me. If I were the other surveyor I would sure want that call. I would certainly call him after checking through my own stuff. God knows I have received a few calls like that and was glad of it!

Back in '04 I did a survey setting the lateral limits of some tidelands for a client that involved determining the center of the channel. Recently another surveyor was doing the same for the folks abutting to the North and came upon my stakes and called to discuss it. I told him what all I had done and then received another call some days later from him letting me know he had come up with a different method for determining the center of the channel. I checked it out and agreed. Unfortunately, it meant that I needed to be about another 60' farther out into the channel! I re-staked it and explained it to my client and after going through it all, everything will be fine...I'm very glad the other surveyor called so I had a chance to make it right.

Be careful on those Tideland Survey's. I remember Pac Tech going under loosing a million dollar plus lawsuit by the marina owner. If my memory serves me, they got some bad data from the state, but if they'd have checked a couple more monuments it would have been caught. If my memory also serves me they closed the doors and reopened under another name. I'll refrain from mentioning the other name, but I'm sure you know. lol

I was told by a prominent RPLS poster that he was summoned for deposition
by another RPLSer. I have seen the courts throw out several discussions
between the surveyors representing adjoining land owners.

> I was told by a prominent RPLS poster that he was summoned for deposition
> by another RPLSer. I have seen the courts throw out several discussions
> between the surveyors representing adjoining land owners.

That will only happen if the discussion takes place AFTER a complaint is filed. Once the lawyers are involved and the complaint is filed, then the issue is in the court's ball park and you play by their rules, not professional requirements. Any communication under their rules must be made through the attorneys as part of the discovery process. Depositions are the proper way to discover evidence form the other surveyor.

I've only once been able to convince the attorneys to let me sit down and talk with the other surveyor after the complaint was filed. They mutually agreed to let us talk... in their conference room, with both attorneys and clients present. Was a bit awkward and didn't accomplish as much as if we'd have sat down over a beer where we could really have talked.

JBS

Right or Wrong - Pablo

Paul,
I was responding to your first post where you made no mention of contacting the other surveyor. What do you expect for an answer based upon your first post. Do you enjoy throwing out tidbits and then making snide comments. Why not present ALL the facts first then ask for comments.

Pablo

My feelings are these:
The wall is evidence of the property line. If it is called for in the deed, it is the monument and, therefore, part of the deed. If it is not called for, but the math runs right down the centerline of it, it is extremely strong evidence of perpetuation of the deed. It needs to be on the survey plat.

The other surveyor absolutely must be contacted, for the expressed purpose of discussiong your differences in the boundary. To me, your research isn't done until you exhaust all conflicting evidence and to me that is discussing it with the other surveyor. If you know he was out there, then he may or may not have evidence or other facts that you are not privy to, even if it seems obvious to you what he did and why.

If the other surveyor is an arrogant jerk, you do the best you can to make the appropraite contact, and provide them with your survey and evidence. It will only make you look bettter in court, and it will show that you did everything you could to consider all evidence.

Keeping certain things secret for the client is one thing, but you are an expert in boundary and need to keep things as above-board as far as coming to an expert-conclusion, and secondarily not sharing the details when it is not necessary. That might include only discussing the differences with the other surveyor and asking them to keep confidentiallity if it is part of the sensitive nature. I would also document my efforts if it sounds like things might turn sour.

My thoughts anyway.