Had a client that needed us to set up a plan for him. This has to go through the State Engineer for final approval.
So we sat down with him, laid everything out, located all the facilities, and sent down my idea to the state.
Well, they wanted to change it, so,,,,,,,,,fine, they sent back paperwork and what a mess, I went ahead and made the changes into one of the most messy maps and paperwork I've ever done. I didn't understand what they were trying to do, seems they were making something simple much harder than it needed to be, but get it done and out the door was my thinking.
Sent it all back down, then......................
Someone down there looks at it and makes changes, kinda back to the beginning,,,,,but with a few weird twists.
So before starting on the third version I call them and start asking what's up, then I find out the paperwork has been approved,,,,,,,,,,,,with their revisions!!!!
Now all they need from me is the map later, after final construction and some simple paperwork,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I can't change anything, I'm stuck with the changes they did and it doesn't make a lick of sense to me............
Because they approved it there is no going back, you would have to cancel it to make any revisions, and because the original owners went bankrupt that might not be possible,,,,,,,,,,,
Oh well,,,,,,,as long as it does what the client wants, guess it shouldn't bother me,,,,,,,,,,except I hate sending off that confusing map and how do I charge it all?........
Looks like another job I end up chopping time off.
Nothing in this world is dumber than an entrenched bureaucrat.
Holy Cow, post: 362606, member: 50 wrote: Nothing in this world is dumber than an entrenched bureaucrat.
Still scratching my head, I got the map done, whew!!!!
I'll send it down when the valve is turned
"So before starting on the third version I call them and start asking what's up, then I find out the paperwork has been approved,,,,,,,,,,,,with their revisions!!!!"
My take on that is that they have a set of your plans that they have marked up in red or other pencil lines for what they want it to be and approved it into record on that basis.
I would do nothing else until paid in full including the additional change of drawing work.
0.02
Several years ago we had designed a highway widening/realignment for a local government. We had the "normal" number of comments by Georgia DOT and the county engineer. We completed the plans and got paid in full (that's always nice). A couple of years later I get a call from a road contractor with whom we worked often. I went and pulled the plans and called him back. He had a question about a median opening at station X+XX. Wait, there is no median opening at that station. Sure there is, it's right here on the plans. Come to find out the County had taken the sepias that we sent them and made some pretty significant changes. All done without removing stamps/signatures. Thanks, you just relieved us of ANY and ALL liability on this project. And no we didn't pursue any legal options with the county engineer who changed the drawings, just made it CLEAR that it better never happen again.
Andy
A Harris, post: 362623, member: 81 wrote: "So before starting on the third version I call them and start asking what's up, then I find out the paperwork has been approved,,,,,,,,,,,,with their revisions!!!!"
My take on that is that they have a set of your plans that they have marked up in red or other pencil lines for what they want it to be and approved it into record on that basis.
I would do nothing else until paid in full including the additional change of drawing work.
0.02
I had a choice (I thought) of doing the plan two different ways Plan A or Plan B.
Plan A was easier, B was more complicated, so I sent A down.
They couldn't tell me without seeing it which way to go and they don't look at it until they get the paperwork and payment, in this case it was 5 payments.
So I had to send down a rough map, the paperwork how I thought it should be, the payments and figured they might change it to B.
Instead I got back the most complicated mess I could imagine,,,,,,,call it Plan C.
They changed the paperwork and my map needed to reflect those changes.
I kinda got what they wanted, but my opinion was that they were focused on one minor item which was the wrong item to get hung up on.
Anyway, in the interest of getting it done I sent down all the changes to make everything reflect Plan C, scratching my head over it all, once they looked at it again they got to thinking and sent changes back which was basically Plan B, with a weird twist.
Then they made the changes on the paperwork, which is 6 Excel spread sheets and approved it. All they need now is my map which will be completed after construction and some paperwork from the owner and it will be done.
This all HAS to be completed soon, or they will cancel it all, so before years end it will be online.
Andy Bruner, post: 362631, member: 1123 wrote: Several years ago we had designed a highway widening/realignment for a local government. We had the "normal" number of comments by Georgia DOT and the county engineer. We completed the plans and got paid in full (that's always nice). A couple of years later I get a call from a road contractor with whom we worked often. I went and pulled the plans and called him back. He had a question about a median opening at station X+XX. Wait, there is no median opening at that station. Sure there is, it's right here on the plans. Come to find out the County had taken the sepias that we sent them and made some pretty significant changes. All done without removing stamps/signatures. Thanks, you just relieved us of ANY and ALL liability on this project. And no we didn't pursue any legal options with the county engineer who changed the drawings, just made it CLEAR that it better never happen again.
Andy
This is something that can be revised by the engineer, I don't mind at all if they do.
In fact they can be quite helpful,,,,,,,,,but I think this one was too confusing and unusual, how it happened.
I can say if I get another one like it (hope never) this experience won't be helpful in the least.
MightyMoe, post: 362603, member: 700 wrote:
Looks like another job I end up chopping time off.
Bill it
Dealing with the bureaucracy of a large governmental agency is one of the most mind-bogglingly silly things I've ever done.
For a while I worked for a firm and we were the contracted city engineer/surveyor for a small community. The main street through town was a state highway (California Highway 33). The city had the idea that they wanted to do some beautification improvements to the main 3 blocks on the highway through town. After the application process, they were approved for the funding and given the go ahead on the improvement plans.
The original topography and right-of-way survey was completed already when I came on board to this firm. But it was a solid survey, so I didn't have any problems with it and we went forward. The plans were drawn and submitted to Caltrans for review. First comments were received with a TON of requested changes to the plans. So we made those changes, completed with the additional surveying required to get the information necessary.
Second submittal went in. Got a TON of additional changes requested, some of which more or less reverted the previously requested changes.
We go to a meeting at the Caltrans district office and sit down with people from each of the departments that had reviewed the plans (landscaping, traffic control, electrical, etc). And we go through these comments, one by one, discussing them and attempting to reach a solution. In many instances, the person from one of the departments would say, "Well, I'm not sure if that would be approved. I'll have to ask my supervisor and get back to you." And in many other instances, when we asked for clarification on a comment, the response was "Well, I'm not the one that did this plan review, so I'll have to talk to the person that did and get back to you.".
We repeated this cycle about every 8-10 months. Plan submittal for review, comments received, changes made, meeting called, some resolutions made, other issues brought up, and so on...
When I left that firm about 3 years ago, they had been in the process for 4 years already. Those improvements still haven't been approved.
skwyd, post: 362807, member: 6874 wrote: Dealing with the bureaucracy of a large governmental agency is one of the most mind-bogglingly silly things I've ever done.
For a while I worked for a firm and we were the contracted city engineer/surveyor for a small community. The main street through town was a state highway (California Highway 33). The city had the idea that they wanted to do some beautification improvements to the main 3 blocks on the highway through town. After the application process, they were approved for the funding and given the go ahead on the improvement plans.
The original topography and right-of-way survey was completed already when I came on board to this firm. But it was a solid survey, so I didn't have any problems with it and we went forward. The plans were drawn and submitted to Caltrans for review. First comments were received with a TON of requested changes to the plans. So we made those changes, completed with the additional surveying required to get the information necessary.
Second submittal went in. Got a TON of additional changes requested, some of which more or less reverted the previously requested changes.
We go to a meeting at the Caltrans district office and sit down with people from each of the departments that had reviewed the plans (landscaping, traffic control, electrical, etc). And we go through these comments, one by one, discussing them and attempting to reach a solution. In many instances, the person from one of the departments would say, "Well, I'm not sure if that would be approved. I'll have to ask my supervisor and get back to you." And in many other instances, when we asked for clarification on a comment, the response was "Well, I'm not the one that did this plan review, so I'll have to talk to the person that did and get back to you.".
We repeated this cycle about every 8-10 months. Plan submittal for review, comments received, changes made, meeting called, some resolutions made, other issues brought up, and so on...
When I left that firm about 3 years ago, they had been in the process for 4 years already. Those improvements still haven't been approved.
Yep - it ramps up when you add a railroad and another local agency to the mix ...
I started in a private firm; we would do a whole set of improvement plans in under a month (up to the first submittal). They laid me off so I needed a job to keep the family in food and shelter. I landed at a local small City. Wow, that was a culture shock. The City staff always complained about how hard Caltrans was to work with; for a small city it has a lot of State Highways, two freeways and several surface streets are state highways.
Then I went to State Parks, the City was a well oiled machine compared to that place.
The State primarily runs on politics; efficiency and common sense have very little to do with anything except for people at or near the bottom layer mostly operating on the principle of it's easier to get forgiveness or permission. If we didn't do that nothing would ever get done. Unfortunately the public blames the rank and file but it's middle management and above, the political hacks that really run the show. Rank and file just tries to get away with as much as they can.
Warren Smith, post: 362810, member: 9900 wrote: Yep - it ramps up when you add a railroad and another local agency to the mix ...
I've had to deal with UP a couple of times. Once for getting a permit to install a water line under the tracks; once for tracking down the legal descriptions for the SBE parcels they owned (which I never could turn up).
Most local agencies (Cities/Counties) are okay when I'm dealing with the Engineers and Surveyors. It is the Planning Departments that often put me into fits.
One Federal entity I'll never poop on is the military.
They know what they want, have competent in house surveyors and engineers involved, there's no property rights issues, payment is never a problem, and on base food is delicious. Downsides are they want it *fast* (often there's an early completion incentive), they want it right the first time (if you bollix up a project even a little you'll never be considered for another) and sometimes the fieldwork is kinky, usually there's an armed escort who's pretty much silent except when you want to offroad drive to yonder ridge or shorten a level loop by running between them buildings he'll pipe up and say "nope, access restricted, can't do that."
One Federal entity I'll never poop on is the military.
They know what they want, have competent in house surveyors and engineers involved, there's no property rights issues, payment is never a problem, and on base food is delicious. Downsides are they want it *fast* (often there's an early completion incentive), they want it right the first time (if you bollix up a project even a little you'll never be considered for another) and sometimes the fieldwork is kinky, usually there's an armed escort who's pretty much silent except when you want to offroad drive to yonder ridge or shorten a level loop by running between them buildings he'll pipe up and say "nope, access restricted, can't do that."
