Skeeter1996, post: 455289, member: 9224 wrote: Old data puts you into the footsteps of the previous Surveyor. Unfortunately I do find an awful lot of bad data. I wonder how many of them we're LSA their data. What bit me this time was my memory. A couple of posters steered me right quite early, but then the anti site calibration group jumped on me and then the LDP group came after me, and the the LSA group came after me and here we end up chopping with an axe. I kind of get the feel of what Trump is going through on a much smaller field of course. Now the Democrats will be after me.
I was a little disappointed Loyal faded off before we got to the meat of LDP. He had my attention there for awhile.
Skeeter- NO politics allowed on this forum. I think whining is also against the rules.
I ki
Loyal, post: 455295, member: 228 wrote: Skeeter,
Sorry for "dropping out" on the LDP issue. I am swamped with work right now, and have been for most of this year. To "properly" outline [even] the basics of LDPs, requires a lot of work, and really needs examples and exhibits that also require significant time.
I would suggest that you take a look at Shawn Billing's articles in American Surveyor a couple of years back:
http://www.amerisurv.com/PDF/TheAmericanSurveyor_Billings-GroundVersusGrid-LDPpart1_Vol10No9.pdf
http://www.amerisurv.com/PDF/TheAmericanSurveyor_Billings-GroundVersusGrid-LDPpart2_Vol10No10.pdfYou will no doubt have some specific questions once you digest the above articles, and a new tread will be the best way for you to get good answers to those questions.
Loyal
ND of understand the concept. I just can't figure out how you align an old survey without a translation and rotation to relate it to geographical positions. How do you physically do that? Or do you? I'm beginning to think what your doing is backwards from what I'm doing. I'm trying to adapt the geographical system to the specific survey and your adapting the geographical system to a more general ground system.
All that aside. How do you use it to search old mineral claims? What data is available from an old Mineral Survey that you can use to create a LDP of it's location? I can find nothing in a Mineral Survey that gives any clue to it's geographical location. Though I've long suspected it exists.
If you can more-or-less locate the mineral survey on Google Earth (or even a USGS quad) you have a geographical location that is more than adequate for setting up a low-distortion projection.
GB
Glenn Borkenhagen, post: 455312, member: 961 wrote: If you can more-or-less locate the mineral survey on Google Earth (or even a USGS quad) you have a geographical location that is more than adequate for setting up a low-distortion projection.
GB
The problem is I can't locate a for certain location of the claims. They were mislocated in the master title plats in the wrong township. After dilegent search by three nationally reknown corner searchers the USLM could not be located. A couple of more agile searchers even searched for old diggings and actual claim corners to no avail. Loyal baited me with the claim he could find Mineral Claims using information from the mineral survey and a LDP. He has danced around the question and has yet to reveal any clues on how he can do it.
I've slid around the claims configuration all around aerial photo and narrowed down about 6 possible locations. They are all located in brutal locations, maybe why they were abandoned and lost. Heraldo Rivera has offered to do a special if we find the claims and open them up. I'm sure the shovels, picks, and steels we're left inside. It was reported the shafts we're 1000 feet long, so you would think a sizeable waste pile would be visible. Careful study of GE images have not revealed any waste piles. The images by the way are amazingly clear. It beats climbing the slope. They aren't quite clear enough to spot markings on stones yet. So a field visit is required. I don't want to do that until I have a fairly confident search area defined. I don't believe Loyal has a method, but I'm all eyes and ears if he does. There may be some geographical information hidden on the old Mineral Records I'm not aware of. They had to at least do at least sunshots for basis of bearing.
Skeeter1996, post: 455321, member: 9224 wrote: The problem is I can't locate a for certain location of the claims. They were mislocated in the master title plats in the wrong township. After dilegent search by three nationally reknown corner searchers the USLM could not be located. A couple of more agile searchers even searched for old diggings and actual claim corners to no avail. Loyal baited me with the claim he could find Mineral Claims using information from the mineral survey and a LDP. He has danced around the question and has yet to reveal any clues on how he can do it.
I've slid around the claims configuration all around aerial photo and narrowed down about 6 possible locations. They are all located in brutal locations, maybe why they were abandoned and lost. Heraldo Rivera has offered to do a special if we find the claims and open them up. I'm sure the shovels, picks, and steels we're left inside. It was reported the shafts we're 1000 feet long, so you would think a sizeable waste pile would be visible. Careful study of GE images have not revealed any waste piles. The images by the way are amazingly clear. It beats climbing the slope. They aren't quite clear enough to spot markings on stones yet. So a field visit is required. I don't want to do that until I have a fairly confident search area defined. I don't believe Loyal has a method, but I'm all eyes and ears if he does. There may be some geographical information hidden on the old Mineral Records I'm not aware of. They had to at least do at least sunshots for basis of bearing.
Loyal isn't saying an LDP somehow leads you to Mineral Claim monuments. What we are all saying is that it creates a good retraceable basis for your survey.
If you want a true north system you can set your central meridian through the middle of the site and you will be within a few tens of seconds of true with your grid bearings. Like Glen says you can do that off google.
You will have GPS projected to the surface with small PPM's for your distances.
Finding evidence is like it always is, you search, once you find one you navigate from the found one to the next one and so on.
There is no magic program that finds corners for you.
After all you are creating a crude LDP with a calibration, an LDP where you are unaware of it's parameters.
Tell me more about these phantom Mineral Surveys, although there are certainly some LOST (and probably unrecoverable) Mineral Surveys around, there is usually a "clue" hidden somewhere in the related documents concerning the Claims.
There is often a LOT more to retracing Mineral Surveys than just looking at the Plat and Notes.
BTW, Mighty is spot on with his comments above. You will still need to find SOMETHING to get started on/from.
Loyal
Loyal, post: 455328, member: 228 wrote: Tell me more about these phantom Mineral Surveys, although there are certainly some LOST (and probably unrecoverable) Mineral Surveys around, there is usually a "clue" hidden somewhere in the related documents concerning the Claims.
There is often a LOT more to retracing Mineral Surveys than just looking at the Plat and Notes.
BTW, Mighty is spot on with his comments above. You will still need to find SOMETHING to get started on/from.
Loyal
Ada Cascade Lodes 3285 A & B. They were mislocated in the Master Title Plats in the wrong Township which was understandable because the GLO hadn't done the survey yet. We may have an additional, but nobody's turned up either the USLM or any of the eight corners. William Monroe was the Mineral Surveyor. I've retraced a couple of his other surveys and he did good work. Didn't go overboard on creating corners. I had a lead of a USGS map located in a drawer F I believe in Denver. A Surveyor on here was familiar with that drawer, but never got back to me on it.
I researched the patentee and he was one of Paris Gibson's henchmen. Herbert Chowen. Gibson's Accountant actually. All of his personal records are lost. I interviewed an old mineral and resident of Running Wolf about the claim. He had never run into it or heard of it. No other claims in the area used the USLM or tied into any of the corners of the claims.Both claims are located on nasty steep side slopes with a drainage where they have common corners. That area is easy to search, but nothing was ever found there. A Surveyor who goes around doing seminars contacted me a couple of years back. He was cocksure he would find them. The terrain was too tough for him and he left with his tail between his legs. That about covers what I know.
Skeeter1996, post: 455336, member: 9224 wrote: Ada Cascade Lodes 3285 A & B. They were mislocated in the Master Title Plats in the wrong Township which was understandable because the GLO hadn't done the survey yet. We may have an additional, but nobody's turned up either the USLM or any of the eight corners. William Monroe was the Mineral Surveyor. I've retraced a couple of his other surveys and he did good work. Didn't go overboard on creating corners. I had a lead of a USGS map located in a drawer F I believe in Denver. A Surveyor on here was familiar with that drawer, but never got back to me on it.
I researched the patentee and he was one of Paris Gibson's henchmen. Herbert Chowen. Gibson's Accountant actually. All of his personal records are lost. I interviewed an old mineral and resident of Running Wolf about the claim. He had never run into it or heard of it. No other claims in the area used the USLM or tied into any of the corners of the claims.Both claims are located on nasty steep side slopes with a drainage where they have common corners. That area is easy to search, but nothing was ever found there. A Surveyor who goes around doing seminars contacted me a couple of years back. He was cocksure he would find them. The terrain was too tough for him and he left with his tail between his legs. That about covers what I know.
I think it was imaudigger was the one who knew of the existence of the USGS drawer.
Skeeter1996, post: 455336, member: 9224 wrote: Ada Cascade Lodes 3285 A & B. They were mislocated in the Master Title Plats in the wrong Township which was understandable because the GLO hadn't done the survey yet. We may have an additional, but nobody's turned up either the USLM or any of the eight corners. William Monroe was the Mineral Surveyor. I've retraced a couple of his other surveys and he did good work. Didn't go overboard on creating corners. I had a lead of a USGS map located in a drawer F I believe in Denver. A Surveyor on here was familiar with that drawer, but never got back to me on it.
I researched the patentee and he was one of Paris Gibson's henchmen. Herbert Chowen. Gibson's Accountant actually. All of his personal records are lost. I interviewed an old mineral and resident of Running Wolf about the claim. He had never run into it or heard of it. No other claims in the area used the USLM or tied into any of the corners of the claims.Both claims are located on nasty steep side slopes with a drainage where they have common corners. That area is easy to search, but nothing was ever found there. A Surveyor who goes around doing seminars contacted me a couple of years back. He was cocksure he would find them. The terrain was too tough for him and he left with his tail between his legs. That about covers what I know.
Interesting, could be a real stinker.
Do you have the Mineral Survey Field Notes, Patent, and the Field Notes on the USLM?
Loyal
Loyal, post: 455348, member: 228 wrote: Interesting, could be a real stinker.
Do you have the Mineral Survey Field Notes, Patent, and the Field Notes on the USLM?
Loyal
Yes I do. They're on the internet. I even got copies of the original stuff from the National Archives.
Loyal, post: 455348, member: 228 wrote: Interesting, could be a real stinker.
Do you have the Mineral Survey Field Notes, Patent, and the Field Notes on the USLM?
Loyal
It definitely is a stinker.
Skeeter1996, post: 455352, member: 9224 wrote: Yes I do. They're on the internet. I even got copies of the original stuff from the National Archives.
I found the Plat on the GLO site, but no notes or patent
Loyal, post: 455355, member: 228 wrote: I found the Plat on the GLO site, but no notes or patent
Request them from the Montana BLM site. They have the connection diagram also. Which I found useless.
roger_LS, post: 455308, member: 11550 wrote: Skeeter- NO politics allowed on this forum. I think whining is also against the rules.
No cheese with my whine? I did feel like I was treading on thin ice when I mentioned Trump. No Democrats on here evidently.
MightyMoe, post: 455325, member: 700 wrote: Loyal isn't saying an LDP somehow leads you to Mineral Claim monuments. What we are all saying is that it creates a good retraceable basis for your survey.
If you want a true north system you can set your central meridian through the middle of the site and you will be within a few tens of seconds of true with your grid bearings. Like Glen says you can do that off google.
You will have GPS projected to the surface with small PPM's for your distances.
Finding evidence is like it always is, you search, once you find one you navigate from the found one to the next one and so on.
There is no magic program that finds corners for you.
After all you are creating a crude LDP with a calibration, an LDP where you are unaware of it's parameters.
So how is that better or even different from calculating coordinates from an original survey record. Configuring to one or more found corners and navigating to the rest of them if I want accurate geographical coordinates I OPUS the RTK base file and correct the base "here" coordinates with the OPUS values. What advantage is there to creating a LDP?
Skeeter1996, post: 455369, member: 9224 wrote: So how is that better or even different from calculating coordinates from an original survey record. Configuring to one or more found corners and navigating to the rest of them if I want accurate geographical coordinates I OPUS the RTK base file and correct the base "here" coordinates with the OPUS values. What advantage is there to creating a LDP?
Appendices D and E of this paper are a great starting point for engaging your questions.
https://www.ngs.noaa.gov/PUBS_LIB/NGSRealTimeUserGuidelines.v2.1.pdf
Popcorn is ready.
Joe the Surveyor, post: 455384, member: 118 wrote: Popcorn is ready.
Lol I just popped a batch 10 seconds before I read your post.
Skeeter1996, post: 454923, member: 9224 wrote: Hopefully your not walking the line with your compass and hip chain.
When talking OLD surveys, walking the line with a compass and hip chain is one of the best ways to follow in the footsteps of the original surveyor.
Taking the fastest and most direct path to the corner isn't always the best approach. I'm sure you know that.
Skeeter1996, post: 455369, member: 9224 wrote: So how is that better or even different from calculating coordinates from an original survey record. Configuring to one or more found corners and navigating to the rest of them if I want accurate geographical coordinates I OPUS the RTK base file and correct the base "here" coordinates with the OPUS values. What advantage is there to creating a LDP?
Heck, just keep calibrating.