Rant On

I totally agree...especially when the monument is usually a diameter greater than what you are missing the corner by. How accurate is the location? I doubt that most surveyors doing boundary work are using methods that would allow them to have measurements within a half inch.

My only thought is it must be an engineer making those measurements or someone who does not understand measurement theory.

More of a Pet Peeve

Of course, .07' in 100' isn't quite 1:5000...
🙂

This is completely absurd, and is NOT what the land surveyor is hired to do. This is a clear case of someone not understanding the importance of boundary elements... he/she is placing the calls on the paper at a higher importance than the measured positions of the monuments. If the found monument is deemed to be within a "reasonable proximity" of the deed position, HOLD YOUR OWN MEASUREMENT to the pin - OR hold the record measurement - BUT DO NOT show little dimensions over to found monuments from "Calculated" points. How can the owner ever really know where their corners are?? We have a couple of these guys here in GA - I always cringe when we have to follow one of them.

~ Trent

It depends

If this was a 100 acre tract on the side of a hill - I agree.

On the other hand if this were in a city or a well monumented subdivision where values are $10,000 a front foot I'd be concerned. Or where these increments could have an effect on minimum widths or areas I'd be concerned.

Of course I want to make sure my techniques and procedures would justify this.

And don't tell me no one would worry about this. I work in jurisdictions where the bureaucrats would say that 9,999 square feet is not good enough for a 10,000 square foot lot - and I agree. A line in the sand is a line in the sand.

Some of the responses to this thread typify the justification some surveyors have to virtually pin cushion. Monuments mean nothing if they are incorrectly located on a 100 ft. lot in the high rent district? Hog wash. If monuments have that little to do with correct location they should not be set to start with. If no monumnets are needed no licensed individuals are needed to put them in. It's a matter of time before this realization strikes home and the professional surveyor is no more. We are only professionals in our own minds anyway. This sort of practice is clearly unprofessional to all other observers. Why would a professional not monument the corner? Why would a professional introduce more than one possible corner location?

rant on

I agree.
Saw a map from the State DNR measuring section lines with their GPS and showing other guys 1/16 corners off of a split by .04' that were set 20 years ago with a total station. Give me a break! Told him if it bothers him that much, he could kick my irons as he walked by to make them perfect.
This is on the verge of un-professional and makes all look bad.

Our tolerance is 0.05' for most smaller residential stuff for us to call it on...again...the land is VERY valuable. Otherwise we show the pin as off unless called for. If it's not called for then the deed distance holds and the pin is off.

Tom

Set the corner if it needs a monument. If some old monument appears to be in the wrong place (Maybe it's been hit or whatever you judge to have made it be off) then why don't you pull it and set something in the right place? Or bump it over to the right place?

So, like, EVERY shot that we take is located PRECISELY on the EXACT center of the found monument and the rod is ABSOLUTELY plumb?
So why is it that when we shoot that perfectly square concrete pad it draws up as a parallelogram on drugs?
Why is it that when we go back to a point it has somehow moved a tad?? x, y AND z?? Or are we saying that, AT ANY TIME, when we return to a project we get Exactly the same x, yand z values, to the third or fourth decimal place?
Please don't make me call the Bullsnit Police!!

Monuments mean nothing if they are incorrectly located on a 100 ft. lot in the high rent district? Hog wash.

Of course they do...but rebar moves, pipes get hit and run over...landscapers rip stuff out daily and replace it...

If we have a 200 year old map that calls all the lots out at 50x100 feet and there were no original mons set (or they are long gone) then we rely on best fit and stability of what we find around the block.

I can go down a line of 100 lots on one of these old areas and find 20 pins...the distance between them will be anywhere from 49 feet to 51 feet.

This area has been surveyed staked buy probably a hundred surveyors over the last 200 years. Some good some not. There are no caps, no identifications, just rebar and pipes. The deeds just call out the lot number on the map...been the same way for 200 years.

One guy holds the streets but we all know the location of the physical street center is subject to interpretation and variations in accuracy...another guy holds and old pipe at the end of the block and rotates it into a rebar halfway down...another guy determines the street line from our block and the next block over...another guy finds 20 pins around the block and best fits them, another finds only two pins because he's lazy...

This is reality of surveying in a lot of old urban areas.

We generally locate the street edges, locate all the evidence we can (including fences) around the block and across the street and do a best fit. If something jumps out as really solid or if something is called for...we try to hold it unless it just makes no sense (it would throw the entire neighborhood off.

You can't just hold a pin because it's there. If it's not called for the deed distance may (not all the time) hold more weight. Especially if its from an old filed map. I'm not going to give someone 50.1 feet and their neighbor 49.9 feet just because there is a rebar there. If the intent of the conveyance was to give 50 feet to each...then that is what they get.

Tom

> If monuments have that little to do with correct location they should not be set to start with.

Linebender

> So why is it that when we shoot that perfectly square concrete pad it draws up as a parallelogram on drugs?

cptdent

:good:

Monuments don't outweigh intent. If the monument was the intent...it would be called for in a document or map. ie..."100 feet to a monument" if the monument is 100.5 feet then the line is 100.5 feet. But if I have a deed that calls "South 59deg West 100 feet to apoint" and there is a monument 100.5 feet on that line and the deed predates the monument...the intent at the time of conveyance was 100 feet not 100.5 feet.

Now there may be other legal factors that may play into this such as Adverse possession, acquiescence, etc. But those are legal matters for attorneys to work out...I may advise my client on them but the documents say the line is 100 feet.

Unless there are some really unusual circumstances, that person needs his/her license revoked, because they don't know how to survey.

When you find a monument you don't agree with, you need to man up and set your own monument, or go ahead and accept what you find. Calling found monuments off by a few fractions of a feet is wussing out.

It depends

One of the first things anybody taught me about boundary surveying is "the calls and distances are just clues that get us to the corners." I cannot understand why anyone would make a fuss out of .05'. Very early on,I learned there are no perfect measurements. If a corner that is found to be .05' away from the deed calls, why don't you just pull it up if you are so confident that it is incorrect??? because you know its wrong to pull up corners, and that makes it a corner.

Maybe we should just pull up all but the first pin that we find and set them all match the deed calls.

What if the adjoiners and previous owner observed that corner as the true corner for years? now you want to create a gap or overlap in a place that had no problems before you showed up?

ANYONE who does not hold a corner that is .05' from the deed call is incompetent in my opinion. :pissed:

Saw a map from the State DNR measuring section lines with their GPS and showing other guys 1/16 corners off of a split by .04'

Wow! 0.04' on a 1/16 corner. Or .04' in 1320'! So someone 20 years ago set it and this guy comes along with ..... let me guess RTK. That's ALMOST funny if it wasn't so unprofessional. Really the guy needs a talking to. He doesn't understand the PLSS system.

> Monuments don't outweigh intent. If the monument was the intent...it would be called for in a document or map. ie..."100 feet to a monument" if the monument is 100.5 feet then the line is 100.5 feet. But if I have a deed that calls "South 59deg West 100 feet to apoint" and there is a monument 100.5 feet on that line and the deed predates the monument...the intent at the time of conveyance was 100 feet not 100.5 feet.
>
> Now there may be other legal factors that may play into this such as Adverse possession, acquiescence, etc. But those are legal matters for attorneys to work out...I may advise my client on them but the documents say the line is 100 feet.

Not necessarily. If that monument is the original monument and it was set around the time of orginal conveyance, it is the corner, period. If you can proove that the monument is a result of a resurvey and it was set in accordance with the original monument, it is the corner.

It depends

> ANYONE who does not hold a corner that is .05' from the deed call is incompetent in my opinion. :pissed:

:good:

Although I generally agree with that, that statement still focuses a little too much on math. We are apparently forgetting that what makes a monument a corner is reliance. If a landowner can't rely on a monument set by a surveyor, why are we needed?

> Monuments don't outweigh intent. If the monument was the intent...it would be called for in a document or map. ie..."100 feet to a monument" if the monument is 100.5 feet then the line is 100.5 feet. But if I have a deed that calls "South 59deg West 100 feet to apoint" and there is a monument 100.5 feet on that line and the deed predates the monument...the intent at the time of conveyance was 100 feet not 100.5 feet.
>
> Now there may be other legal factors that may play into this such as Adverse possession, acquiescence, etc. But those are legal matters for attorneys to work out...I may advise my client on them but the documents say the line is 100 feet.

100 feet is precise to the nearest foot. If a deed calls for 100 feet, and you hit a monument within a tenth of a foot, you are crazy not to accept it. The intent was no more accurate than the pin found.

If you are being paid to stake it...for most surveyors around here it's an extra.

Tom