My survey is for Lots 69, 15, 16, and 17. When referring to the east lines, the deeds all state "to the railroad ROW and thence along the railroad ROW". The railroad was placed in service in 1871. The lots were created in 1896. At an unknown date, 3å¡22.5' spirals 225' in length were placed on the ends of the 3å¡ simple curve.
If the spiral is ignored, then the east lines of Lot 69 and Lot 15 are probably straight lines. The reason for ignoring the spiral is because the ROW was created as 100' from centerline of the railroad which fixed its position in 1871 most likely with a simple curve.
This leaves me to deal with Lots 16 and 17. Previous surveyors have ignored the curve altogether for all of the lots making the point at the bottom of Lot 17 a straight line to the NE corner of Lot 69. Lot 17 should fully be in the curve and Lot 16 partly in the curve if the map is correct.
Would you intersect the tangent lines outside of the spirals and apply a 3å¡ simple curve to define the ROW on the curve?
I would, railroad ROW's were simple curves, the Val maps were showing the spirals cause the tracks were spiral-curve-spiral, but val maps were made for property taxing.
You may be shocked how tight the tracks fit the record deflection and the 3 degree curve. Usually I find them really good.
would the deed for the railroad not tell you? here they were recorded, anyway.
Yeah, there should be a deed from a private party to the RR or a grant from the US if it was on un patented land.
The few RR's I've worked on all had simple curves for the ROW but the tracks had been spiraled and so the tracks where not in the center of the ROW going through the curves, yet I found survey markers offset from the CL in some of the curves. I suppose it was easy to offset the tracks other than search out the docs.
J. Penry, post: 343568, member: 321 wrote: My survey is for Lots 69, 15, 16, and 17. When referring to the east lines, the deeds all state "to the railroad ROW and thence along the railroad ROW". The railroad was placed in service in 1871. The lots were created in 1896. At an unknown date, 3å¡22.5' spirals 225' in length were placed on the ends of the 3å¡ simple curve.
If the spiral is ignored, then the east lines of Lot 69 and Lot 15 are probably straight lines. The reason for ignoring the spiral is because the ROW was created as 100' from centerline of the railroad which fixed its position in 1871 most likely with a simple curve.
This leaves me to deal with Lots 16 and 17. Previous surveyors have ignored the curve altogether for all of the lots making the point at the bottom of Lot 17 a straight line to the NE corner of Lot 69. Lot 17 should fully be in the curve and Lot 16 partly in the curve if the map is correct.
Would you intersect the tangent lines outside of the spirals and apply a 3å¡ simple curve to define the ROW on the curve?
Jerry,
What is the Delta of the [current] Simple Curve (and exit spiral data if different than the entrance spiral)?
I also suspect that the ORIGINAL 1871 alignment was not spiraled.
Loyal
He has the deeds - he quoted them in his post...
I am assuming the following J. Penry?
I understand the 3å¡ simple curve is a chord definition?
And spiral curves are not concentric.
Total Delta is listed as 47å¡18'. Delta at the end of the simple curve is listed as 40å¡33'. Degree of Curve is 3å¡. Stationing is: 3409+60.5 BS; 3411+85.5 ES/PC; 3425+37.2 PT/BS; 3427+62.2 ES. Spiral lengths = 225'. Spiral Delta = 3å¡22'30".
Penry
Is that a old town map of your town of Denton?
I see the big text of "TON" to the left.
Art
Yes, surveying two blocks from home today. B-)
It's a Searles Spiral. I'm not sure where the idea comes from that the r/w is a simple curve. I hear it perpetuated a lot, but have never seen a source that backs it up. If anyone has one, I'd sure like to see it.
The Searles Spiral is a series of compound simple curves that can be calculated, plotted and staked out with all necessary precision. I find that they fit really well with the railroads I've retraced. Those old railroad surveyors really new what they were doing.
JBS
I don't know about that John. I'd need to see the RR's ROW deed that called for the spiral. The few RR deeds that I've encountered where simple curves for the ROW. Yeah, the VAL maps usually show the spiraled curve for the CL of tracks.
Where can I get a copy of that spreadsheet? I have a UDOT deed that calls for 10 chord spiral curve, that sheet would make it easy.
JBStahl, post: 343747, member: 427 wrote: It's a Searles Spiral. I'm not sure where the idea comes from that the r/w is a simple curve. I hear it perpetuated a lot, but have never seen a source that backs it up. If anyone has one, I'd sure like to see it.
The Searles Spiral is a series of compound simple curves that can be calculated, plotted and staked out with all necessary precision. I find that they fit really well with the railroads I've retraced. Those old railroad surveyors really new what they were doing.JBS
I've only dealt with 3 RR's, but I have never seen spirals on the original ROW lines. In my experience railroad grant documents called out a fixed width. This would be next to impossible to create using spiral curves. I have seen multiple instances where unknowing retracement surveyors assumed the ROW was some fixed distance from the center of the tracks, and in order to compensate for the spiral curve in the rails have attempted to introduce a spiral or compund curves in the ROW lines. I think I even did this once myself before I became aware...
John,
While I agree that Railroad "ROWs" are often "spiraled" in many cases in our neck of the woods, IT DEPENDS a LOT on the particular Railroad [curve] in question.
Some [originally spiraled] curves have simple curve ROWs, some ARE spiraled...
In any case, I take issue to your 10x22.5 Searles solution...
I don't recall ever seeing an "even number of chords" Searles Spiral in Utah (BUT I haven't seem them all by a long shot). 5x??, 7x??, 9x??, 11x?? etc., etc. is what I am used to seeing. The OTHER indicator when solving a Searles Spiral, is the DEGREE and Delta of each of the simple curve comprising the "compounding series" that makes up the "spiral." These "should" be reasonably "round numbers."
I ran your 10x22.5 through my Searles Program, and got:
Searles Spiral Solution
Spiral Delta DD.MMSS/D.ec = 3.2230 / 3.375
Number of Chords = 10
Chord Lenghts = 22.5
c Delta Degree Radius
1 0å¡ 3' 40.9" 0å¡ 16' 21.8" 21,008.453492190
2 0å¡ 7' 21.8" 0å¡ 32' 43.6" 10,504.228252186
3 0å¡ 11' 2.7" 0å¡ 49' 5.3" 7,002.820508225
4 0å¡ 14' 43.6" 1å¡ 5' 27.0" 5,252.117138275
5 0å¡ 18' 24.5" 1å¡ 22' 0.0" 4,201.695517931
6 0å¡ 22' 5.5" 1å¡ 38' 9.9" 3,501.414772390
7 0å¡ 25' 46.4" 1å¡ 54' 31.1" 3,001.214526737
8 0å¡ 29' 27.3" 2å¡ 11' 0.0" 2,626.064593515
9 0å¡ 33' 8.2" 2å¡ 27' 13.0" 2,334.281535247
10 0å¡ 36' 49.1" 2å¡ 43' 33.5" 2,100.855289448
That does not pass my sniff test. Both the Deltas & Degree [of curve] are odd balls.
Using a 9x25 definition, I get:
Searles Spiral Solution
Spiral Delta DD.MMSS/D.ec = 3.2230 / 3.375
Number of Chords = 9
Chord Lenghts = 25
c Delta Degree Radius
1 0å¡ 4' 30.0" 0å¡ 18' 0.0" 19,098.594534566
2 0å¡ 9' 0.0" 0å¡ 36' 0.0" 9,549.299312591
3 0å¡ 13' 30.0" 0å¡ 54' 0.0" 6,366.201814293
4 0å¡ 18' 0.0" 1å¡ 12' 0.0" 4,774.653746915
5 0å¡ 22' 30.0" 1å¡ 30' 0.0" 3,819.725451906
6 0å¡ 27' 0.0" 1å¡ 48' 0.0" 3,183.107043083
7 0å¡ 31' 30.0" 2å¡ 6' 0.0" 2,728.379997797
8 0å¡ 36' 0.0" 2å¡ 24' 0.0" 2,387.335054721
9 0å¡ 40' 30.0" 2å¡ 42' 0.0" 2,122.078179788
This solution is much more likely (IMO).
BTW, the above radii of the several curves is NOT "exactly" what you would get computing the radius of each Delta & Degree, but is computed to the extreme to allow [near] perfect plotting in AutoCAD.
I also get a [simple curve] PC station of 3410+35.6 (+35.561) with is only 113.061 feet [southerly] from the platted PS. This would indicate that the East Line of Lot 69 will be affected by a "curve" (or spiral) either way.
Loyal
Likely won't work for a DOT 10-chord spiral. The sheet is designed to calculate Searles spirals which were used by some early railroad companies. The Searles spiral is a series of compound curves, not a true spiral. I used the formulas from the book "The Railroad Spiral" written by William H. Searles and published in 1882. You can find it on Google Books.
The deeds for the Salt Lake and Utah railroad I was retracing were from 1913. Here's an example of one of the deed descriptions:
[INDENT]"Commencing at a point where the center line of the Salt Lake and Utah Railroad Company, as now surveyed, intersects the west line of section ... at Engineer's Station 464+90 ... north along the west boundary of section ... 143.1 feet to a point 100 feet distant from and at right angles to said center line; thence south 44å¡19' east and parallel with said center line, a distance of 930.1 feet, more or less, thence southeasterly along the line of a 6å¡ spiraled curve to the right, and parallel with said center line a distance of 949.4 feet; thence south 0å¡39' west 251.2 feet; thence southeasterly along the line of a 6å¡30' spiraled curve to the left, 1109.5 feet, thence south 57å¡13' east and parallel with said center line a distance of 545.2 feet, more or less, to a point on the south line of said lot no. 4; thence West along said sough boundary line a distance of 369.4 feet, crossing said center line at Engineer's Station 429+10, to a point 100 feet distant from and at right angles to said center line; thence north 57å¡13' west and parallel with said center line a distance of 334.6 feet more or less; thence northwesterly along the line of a 6å¡30' spiraled curve and parallel with said center line a distance of 251.2 feet; thence northwesterly along the line of a 6å¡ spiraled curve and parallel with said center line a distance of 949.4 feet; thence north 44å¡19' west and parallel with said center line a distance of 829.9 feet, more or less to a point on the west boundary line of said section ... thence north along said west boundary line 143.1 feet to place of beginning."[/INDENT]
I still had to have the eval maps to get the real centerline data to fill in the unknown blanks left by the legal description. The eval map gave the information for the spiral and curve centerline stationing as well as definitions for the spiral lengths and deltas, central curve deltas and spiral chord definitions such as 8x25', 7x27', 12x30' etc.
Loyal, post: 343773, member: 228 wrote: John,
While I agree that Railroad "ROWs" are often "spiraled" in many cases in our neck of the woods, IT DEPENDS a LOT on the particular Railroad [curve] in question.
Some [originally spiraled] curves have simple curve ROWs, some ARE spiraled...
In any case, I take issue to your 10x22.5 Searles solution...
I don't recall ever seeing an "even number of chords" Searles Spiral in Utah (BUT I haven't seem them all by a long shot). 5x??, 7x??, 9x??, 11x?? etc., etc. is what I am used to seeing. The OTHER indicator when solving a Searles Spiral, is the DEGREE and Delta of each of the simple curve comprising the "compounding series" that makes up the "spiral." These "should" be reasonably "round numbers."
I ran your 10x22.5 through my Searles Program, and got:
Searles Spiral Solution
Spiral Delta DD.MMSS/D.ec = 3.2230 / 3.375
Number of Chords = 10
Chord Lenghts = 22.5
c Delta Degree Radius
1 0å¡ 3' 40.9" 0å¡ 16' 21.8" 21,008.453492190
2 0å¡ 7' 21.8" 0å¡ 32' 43.6" 10,504.228252186
3 0å¡ 11' 2.7" 0å¡ 49' 5.3" 7,002.820508225
4 0å¡ 14' 43.6" 1å¡ 5' 27.0" 5,252.117138275
5 0å¡ 18' 24.5" 1å¡ 22' 0.0" 4,201.695517931
6 0å¡ 22' 5.5" 1å¡ 38' 9.9" 3,501.414772390
7 0å¡ 25' 46.4" 1å¡ 54' 31.1" 3,001.214526737
8 0å¡ 29' 27.3" 2å¡ 11' 0.0" 2,626.064593515
9 0å¡ 33' 8.2" 2å¡ 27' 13.0" 2,334.281535247
10 0å¡ 36' 49.1" 2å¡ 43' 33.5" 2,100.855289448That does not pass my sniff test. Both the Deltas & Degree [of curve] are odd balls.
Using a 9x25 definition, I get:
Searles Spiral Solution
Spiral Delta DD.MMSS/D.ec = 3.2230 / 3.375
Number of Chords = 9
Chord Lenghts = 25
c Delta Degree Radius
1 0å¡ 4' 30.0" 0å¡ 18' 0.0" 19,098.594534566
2 0å¡ 9' 0.0" 0å¡ 36' 0.0" 9,549.299312591
3 0å¡ 13' 30.0" 0å¡ 54' 0.0" 6,366.201814293
4 0å¡ 18' 0.0" 1å¡ 12' 0.0" 4,774.653746915
5 0å¡ 22' 30.0" 1å¡ 30' 0.0" 3,819.725451906
6 0å¡ 27' 0.0" 1å¡ 48' 0.0" 3,183.107043083
7 0å¡ 31' 30.0" 2å¡ 6' 0.0" 2,728.379997797
8 0å¡ 36' 0.0" 2å¡ 24' 0.0" 2,387.335054721
9 0å¡ 40' 30.0" 2å¡ 42' 0.0" 2,122.078179788This solution is much more likely (IMO).
BTW, the above radii of the several curves is NOT "exactly" what you would get computing the radius of each Delta & Degree, but is computed to the extreme to allow [near] perfect plotting in AutoCAD.
I also get a [simple curve] PC station of 3410+35.6 (+35.561) with is only 113.061 feet [southerly] from the platted PS. This would indicate that the East Line of Lot 69 will be affected by a "curve" (or spiral) either way.
Loyal
Loyal,
I was attempting to fit Jerry's data to the spreadsheet without knowing the spiral chord definitions. I agree that the 10-chord spiral doesn't seem correct for the spiral definition. I came up with that guess in order to fit the 225 foot length he had given. 10-chord solution was the first thing that came to mind as divisible into 225. It's more likely a 9x25 spiral now that I look at it with some forethought in mind. Here's an update to Jerry's data with the more likely 9x25 spiral.
Should get you close enough. Does that check your data a bit better Loyal?
JBS
LRDay, post: 343756, member: 571 wrote: I don't know about that John. I'd need to see the RR's ROW deed that called for the spiral. The few RR deeds that I've encountered where simple curves for the ROW. Yeah, the VAL maps usually show the spiraled curve for the CL of tracks.
Where can I get a copy of that spreadsheet? I have a UDOT deed that calls for 10 chord spiral curve, that sheet would make it easy.
Leon,
The "Railroad 10 chord Spiral" is a different critter. It is discussed in Searles & Ives, Section 232a (Page 204a), 18th Edition of Field Engineering, 1918.
I'm pretty sure that there are some "Internet" routines available to compute the 10-Chord.
Loyal
That's what you need, the deed!
The RR's I have worked are all before 1890. I think that the spirals come into the picture sometime in the late 1800's but don't know for sure.
John,
Looks better for sure.
BTW, thanks for the memory JOG (Plat Image above) that clearly shows "even number Searles Spirals." I went back and looked a couple of Railroad Drawings from old projects, and sure enough, THERE ARE some even number Searles Spirals.
My memory is NOT getting any better with age...
Loyal
Loyal, post: 343778, member: 228 wrote: Leon,
The "Railroad 10 chord Spiral" is a different critter. It is discussed in Searles & Ives, Section 232a (Page 204a), 18th Edition of Field Engineering, 1918.
I'm pretty sure that there are some "Internet" routines available to compute the 10-Chord.
Loyal
So what kind of critter is this? Is the length of the spiral the sum of the ten chords or the arc length? Probably not much difference.
Description:
A parcel of land in fee for an expressway known as Project No. 027-5, being part of an entire tract of property, in the W1/2SW1/4 of Section 35, T. 13S., R. 4 E., S.L.M. The boundaries of said parcel of land are described as follows:
Beginning on the northerly boundary line produced of said entire tract at a point 50.0 ft. perpendicularly distant westerly from the center line of said project, which point is approximately 662 ft. south and 714 ft. east from the W1/4 corner of said Section 35; thence S. 14å¡ 00' E. 339 ft., more of less, to a point of tangency with a spiral to the left opposite Engineer Station 49+49.4; thence Southerly 201.74 ft. along the arc of said spiral which is concentric with and 50.0 ft. radially distant westerly from a 200.0 ft. ten-chord spiral for a 2å¡ 00' curve; thence Southeasterly 590 ft., more or less, along the arc of a 2914.79 ft. radius curve to the left to the southeasterly boundary line produced of said entire tract; thence N. 51å¡ 30' E. 45 ft., more or less, along said southeasterly boundary line produced to the center of the existing highway; thence Northwesterly 1102 ft., more or less, along the center of the said existing highway to a point of intersection with said north boundary line produced; thence West 45 ft., more or less, along said north boundary line produced to the point of beginning as shown on the official map of said project on file in the office of the State Road Commission of Utah. The above described parcel of land contains 1.02 acres, more or less, of which 1.02 acres, more or less, are now occupied by the existing highway. Balance 0.00 acre.
This is in front of my house. There is two center lines, the Project (1964) and the existing (1937) and they are not the same. The 1937 highway was easement ROW and this deed is in fee. There was gravel county road long before 1937, but I haven't found any deeds for that one, they got new ROW easement deeds for the 1937 initial paved road There is about 5-6 feet of easement between my property and the fee owned by UDOT (I suppose I'm the fee owner under the easement). It's not all that simple most of the time. All my deed says is along the west side of the highway, and a survey shows the boundary at the side of the easement. I'm working on annexation so needed to figure out the boundaries for an annexation map.
