Railroad R.O.W. - measuring vertical P/L rails

> ... the rails do not seem to be set with a consistent orientation - i.e. I probably have about 8 located, and some have the larger 4" base section of the rail facing away from the main track (part that is painted "property line"), and some have the travelled, narrower portion of the vertical facing away. One was rotated at a 90 so neither the travelled portion nor the base section faced away.
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> I have heard things such as "they are very approximate - should not use" to "these are the best evidence of where the original rails were - should use". Either way, I am curious which portion people locate on these monuments.
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> I am considering going with centerline of the rails, but welcome input.

I guess if there's no rhyme or reason to the orientation, then the center might be your best bet.

If they are the only evidence left, then they probably are the best evidence. I don't know that I'd just reject them without some good reason. Your professional judgement, I guess, since I'm not there.

it is somewhere in there with all the cobbwebs...

measure to the flatside.... but that all depends on the railroad that put them in....they are supposed to have records... goo dluck finding them.....Of course sometimes folks got a hold of a mess of these and used them as bollards and such and therefor they may not mark ANYTHING AT ALL... It was a custom to use them to mark ROW limits

it is somewhere in there with all the cobbwebs...

Have not obtained the SP val maps, but in general they are not going to be of much assistance. The vertical rails are not shown on those. This is a long straightaway, so I am checking some of the main track and other evidence.

I am not sure if I would trust splitting the main tracks after all this time unless that is all I have.

it is somewhere in there with all the cobbwebs...

From your description and from my experience on the other side of the country, my guess is that they were set haphazardly back in the day, which diminishes their value as a precision monument but not as an accurate monument. Land was cheap, blow and go, get 'er done. I would say that anything other than a shot on the side with an offset over to the center would be tail-chasing.

Stephen

About 15 years ago I did an ALTA in Stratford, TX that was across two streets from the intersection of the BNSF and UP ROW's and the common row line of the NW-SE RR(BNSF) and Street were marked with pieces of Track similar to your description. One also marked the intersection of the Southwest ROW line of the BNSF with the Northwest ROW line of the UP.

Subsequent analysis verified that the location of the upright pieces of track matched the location of the rights-of-way and the CL of track locations and various other property corners. Those Railroad surveyors are generally pretty good. BTW, the RR ROW's were Senior to everything else, including the Railroad blocks in the area.

Val maps should give the orientation of physical centerline to ROW, they were not always centered. If it was originally multi tracked it could be a toss up, but once establsihed a single track line moved very little on the straight sections.

Paul in PA

>.. and some have the larger 4" base section of the rail facing away from the main track (part that is painted "property line"), and some have the travelled, narrower portion of the vertical facing away. One was rotated at a 90 so neither the travelled portion nor the base section faced away.

All those 'some haves' tells me that they were not set in a careful manner at all. I would probably do two things.

Use the C/L of the mainline and search sidelines for private markers. Find out what the previous surveyors did and follow suit. The two should agree with each other for the most part.

It's intended that the wide flat portion of the vertical rail would be away from Cl and the very outside point would be the ROW. If they aren't configured that way I'd would assume the outside and check it to all other evidence. The tax valuation maps should not be used for ROW because they are a redrafting of an older set that established the ROW. Of course finding those older ROW plats.... I have found some in the more urban areas that I work in; they were in the files of a local surveyor that worked from the 1940's-1990's. The RR office only had the tax maps.

> About 15 years ago I did an ALTA in Stratford, TX that was across two streets from the intersection of the BNSF and UP ROW's and the common row line of the NW-SE RR(BNSF) and Street were marked with pieces of Track similar to your description. One also marked the intersection of the Southwest ROW line of the BNSF with the Northwest ROW line of the UP.
>
> Subsequent analysis verified that the location of the upright pieces of track matched the location of the rights-of-way and the CL of track locations and various other property corners. Those Railroad surveyors are generally pretty good. BTW, the RR ROW's were Senior to everything else, including the Railroad blocks in the area.

This too has been my experience here in my neck of the woods.

According to Charlie Tucker

Who I think has worked for the railroad since before there were trains, and who gave two seminars a couple of years ago titled "Railroad Surveying 101", you would typically use the center spot of the face of the flat base.

He also said that using the actual track centerline to re-establish the RW can often get you in a lot of trouble. He went to great length in describing how each time the track smoothing macines come through, they end up moving the track to some degree, flattening out curves each time. Tangents remain relatively unaffected, but curves change significantly.

Also, if you have monuments, yo uhave far superior evidence of the RW than the track can serve as.

Mr. Calder has it right, the RW mons were often placed hastily and with little regard for consistency or precision, so while not precise in their placement when compared to mapped or described dimensions, they are 100% accurate. If you have them and they appear undisturbed, use them. Unless you have good indication on the monument that some point other than the center of the face of the base is the precise point to use, use that point. Don't beat your head against the wall trying to make the mons fit the map.

At least you have the mons. In a lot of places, all we have are the tracks and old fences. Have fun.

According to Charlie Tucker

I remember Charlie Tucker and his seminar. Went to in 1997 and he give everyone a handout that was as large as the Dallas phone book and was filled with great info.

He cleared up many questions I'd been pondering on a number of year. Was the first time it was confirmed that the RR companies have their own language and way of dealing with land rights.

Ditto on having any monument at all to follow. It is akin to a plain concrete monument. Not many were set for center to be on the R/W and who knows what has bumped them around through the years and where they settled. I know for a fact how it is setting a small guage rail end for monuments and am glad I never had to set a full guage rail end. They can be a handfull for several folks.

Around here I have always found their centerline data to be pretty much right on. Getting an actual station reference that has survived or is actually accurately placed where planned is the hard part.

Well, here is a centerline monument marking the PT of a curve from 1889. Note the scribed "x". A very rare find here in the east.
Jim
[msg][/msg]

Not talking about val maps...

Bryan, I am not talking about Val maps. I am sorry that I cannot tell you specifically who or where to ask, but it probably something like engineering records , you will have to hunt down the railroad and THEIR SURVEY RECORDS, to find out how and where they marked their right of way. Splitting the rails ia practically useless since over time rail smoothing machines have run over the track and the track alignment will have moved inside the ROW a considerable amount. You need to locate fixed features like trestles and such.

Bryan- will send info

Bryan, let me know what railroad you are working on and I'll send you the contact info that I have. BTW, IF YOU DO NOT HAVE PERMISSION TO BE INSIDE THE RAILROAD RIGHT OF WAY, you may find your self facing a hefty fine.... and the Ca PLS act won't help you, as the ROW is subject to federal rules....

Bryan- will send info

Thanks Dane. I did reflectorless stuff on the rails, and very little actual walking within the right of way.

I suspect the rails here did not move too much. It is a straightaway here for a bit, and checking with other evidence there is not that significant a difference.

My issue was where to measure on the T-rails, so it is clear what I should be measuring to in order to analyze these along with the other evidence.

I spoke with another surveyor who also mentioned there is something other than val maps that can be used, but it sounds like those are not easy to come by. If you know where to get those, I would be interested. Thanks for your help.

Bryan- will send info

Well, I have the contact list for various railroads and it goes on and on... no time to scn it all...I'll bw happy to scan the page for the RR you need....

Bryan- will send info

Oh I forgot to mention the railroad. This would be the Southern Pacific at the time, which I believe is now under Union Pacific.

Dane

There was a CD that came with the printed handouts that I think has all the contact info on it.

If you can't find yours, let me know. I saw mine somewhere around here just this past week.

I thought it was the other way around

I thought UP was acquired by SP.