Robert Hill, post: 427845, member: 378 wrote: What is ethical pricing?
Unethical pricing is like pornography..I know it when I see it.
Robert Hill, post: 427845, member: 378 wrote: Lot of conjecture here.
But I don't see how a straightforward elevation certificate on a typical residence can approach $6.6kAlso Interesting that there is a sentiment here to value surveys higher in cost to clients with deeper pockets in relation to market value.
So the thread topic was "Pricing and Ethics",
What is ethical pricing?
My problem with it is primarily the person who was calling was almost afraid to ask for a price, and she had a mild personality with utmost respect for professionals. I google earthed her house, and it is simply rural middle income. It sort of makes feel feel sorry for someone like that calling a place that she probably holds to high degree of integrity and gets that kind of price for something that will take 3 or 4 hrs of field time plus filling out the flood plain certificate. A previous poster called it setting a hook. I hate it when someone who is struggling to pay for their home and kids' educations gets hooked like that. Defenseless person being hooked.
[USER=136]@James Fleming[/USER]
"In addition, plaintiffs point to a KREC hearing held on November 28, 2000, in
Louisville. Among other things, Arvel ÛÏJerryÛ McMahan, the principal broker for the
McMahan Company, spoke about the dangers to the profession of internet brokers who
offer cut-rate commissions. In his words, ÛÏthe most unprofessional thing we can do in
this business is cut our commission. I think we ought to be worth what we charge in the
services that we offer.Û
Why can't we, without legal interventiion, charge 1% of the selling price?
(I know why, but it is usless to enter into that conversation agan).
I cant speak to this particular case other than to say it looks bad. It could be ethics, stupidity or just a plain old mistake...
I have no problem charging whatever you and your client agree too. I receive calls like that often. Usually i will pass them on because i know they are shopping around but sometimes I will pursue a project long enough to put together and estimate based on what i think we will have into it labor and expense-wise. Then I ask myself 'do i really need this project? do i have time to do this project? do i want to do this project? what is the value of this project to the client? Sometimes I double or even triple my cost estimate based on the answers to those questions and relay the information to the client. Sometimes they don't even bat an eye and execute contracts on the spot, other times they simply go away. Either way, both parties agree on something, a contract, or that we cannot see eye to eye on the cost and we move forward together or separately.
I am still wondering why some folks still feel that fixed fee proposals are unethical. I've been surveying in these parts for the past 35 years. I believe that I have a pretty good feel for what's required, the pitfalls, and the potential problems.
I also have the "right" to value price my work. I was chided in an early posting that if I don't know the value of my work to my client then I don't know what's going on. Well, to the contrary, I've been solo for the past 14 years and we're doing pretty well. The value of my work to the client is infinite. In some cases the project won't go forward without a survey. So, for a residential homeowner that wants to put a shed on their lot they need a plot plan showing where the shed is going, and then a second one to show where it was really placed.
How big a barrel should I place client over? Jeez, you aren't going anywhere without your $1,000 project without paying a $10,000 fee to me! That doesn't feel right to me. Should I be asking "What's it worth to you?"
No, I look at the deed check out the plan and quote a fixed based on the value of my time to so the project. It's my value that I am using in value pricing.
Let's see, if my elevation certificate is going to save you x amount over the next 20 years then I want 30% of that? hahaha, Oh, like that's ethical? And if your elevation certificate doesn't change a thing do you then get nothing? Oh, wait, let me charge you hourly at $x/hour. Oh, Joe Survey is $x-10/hour, let me do it for x-11/hour? Oh sure, that's much more ethical!
How many of you would choose your attorney,dentist, or doctor based on
My radar starts perking up when I find out I provided a fee estimate for substantially less than another competent surveyor, and likewise when I've estimated substantially more than another competent surveyor. Either they are missing something or I am. It makes me wonder what I may be missing... Could be they don't want the work so they threw out a big number. Could be they know that there is more involved than meets the eye.
I don't do a lot of elevation certificates. Almost all the ones I've done have been on a slab, making the work much easier. Is this house on pier and beam? Will vents have to be measured, etc.? Is the benchmark in good condition?
I'm a big believer in market forces.
It is possible the client doesn't understand the scope the other surveyor quoted. Maybe they got their wires crossed, client didn't know what to ask for, other surveyor heard or interpreted boundary and topo.
I remember when I worked for a civil consultant and we had prepared construction documents for a mile of road widening for a local municipality. The project lost its federal funding for some reason and we shelved the project after being paid for 90% submittals.
Fast forward two years later we were selected by the municipality to prepare prints for replacing a larger diameter water main basically along the same scope of the original widening project. I believe the construction estimate was around 700K and engineering fees were set at %10 of construction cost. We had finished prints in a week because of all the work we had previously done along the route. Nobody batted an eyelash when we submitted the bill. Nothing unethical about that bill at all.
paden cash, post: 427885, member: 20 wrote: Nobody batted an eyelash when we submitted the bill.
James Fleming, post: 427847, member: 136 wrote: Unethical pricing is like pornography..I know it when I see it.
I gave a three-digit number to a lady today for a job that is normally a four-digit job. The difference was that I had already worked that block and have all the control I need plus I was trying to be a nice guy because I was fairly certain she was on a fixed income. Lot of good trying to be a nice guy turned out to be. You would have thought I was wanting her to fornicate with a frog. I had absolutely insulted her as she knew quite well she could get that job done for less than $100.
Oops. Maybe that's pornography. Better check with our Capitol Hill sage on that.
FL/GA PLS., post: 427855, member: 379 wrote: [USER=136]@James Fleming[/USER]
"In addition, plaintiffs point to a KREC hearing held on November 28, 2000, in
Louisville. Among other things, Arvel ÛÏJerryÛ McMahan, the principal broker for the
McMahan Company, spoke about the dangers to the profession of internet brokers who
offer cut-rate commissions. In his words, ÛÏthe most unprofessional thing we can do in
this business is cut our commission. I think we ought to be worth what we charge in the
services that we offer.ÛWhy can't we, without legal interventiion, charge 1% of the selling price?
(I know why, but it is usless to enter into that conversation agan).
i don't know about that number, but i've used the inverse of that argument multiple times when dealing with a client moaning about a fee.
"you're buying an 80 million dollar piece of property, on which you're going to put a 200 million dollar building. and you have a problem with me charging ONE TEN THOUSANDTH OF ONE PERCENT of that number to ensure that it comes off without a hitch? ok, find somebody else then."
flyin solo, post: 428098, member: 8089 wrote: ok, find somebody else then."
The sad part of that; they will...
maybe they do not want the job! perhaps there are other considerations that went into the estimate that we are not aware of . 6200' of closed level loop is not the same product as a GPS solution. NOS 58,59 standards to produce 5 cm would take far more time than running a level loop. Does an EC needed to be surveyed to that standard? Probably not, but the surveyor has to stand behind their opinion. The public should be able to count on the data being suitable for it's intended purpose. My understanding is that all we have to do is say how we derived the data. Why not Google earth it, that produces a number.... In my area this type of service goes for $200-$300. I cannot justify my liability and the quality of the data produced for that small a fee. My fee to produce the data and documentation is easily ten times.
