I recently had a call from a realtor. She has a plat of survey conducted by another surveyor in 2007. The plat depicts two tracts of ground. She also has a description of one tract of the plat prepared by the same surveyor at the same time as the plat was prepared. For some unknown to me reason, neither she or the seller have a description of the second tract.
She has not been able to get in touch with the original surveyor. From what I hear, his license has lapsed and he may be having serious health issues.
The realtor asked me if I could prepare a description based on the other surveyor's plat. I told her that I personally would not do this as my name would be on the description, even if only stating that I prepared the description based on someone else's work. To me, that opens up the opportunity of placing responsibility for any deficiencies in the other surveyors work on me. It may be avoidable, but the finger of blame for any problems would certainly be pointed first at me.
I told her I would do a boundary survey then issue a description based on my findings. Alternately, I suggested that she get the plat recorded and simply refer to it as tract X of plat recorded in ....
What is your opinion? Is preparing a description from another surveyor's work an action you do/ do not feel comfortable performing?
Living in a state with recording laws, record of surveys filed in county survey records and plats being recorded in the clerks office as well as being filed in the survey records, the term plat has special meaning. Sounds as if you don't live in a recording state. Would not have a problem if that plat you speak of was the result of platting a unique tract of land described in the records. It would be a description of the whole using the existing recorded description including the recording data and excepting the description already written. Unless you can find fault with the existing survey, I would consider it usury to make your writing dependent on a new survey. Not very professional to not respecting another professionals work without cause. Seems non recording states have evolved some surveying practices I find appalling and makes me thankful for where I practice.
jud
Is preparing a description from another surveyor's work an action you do/ do not feel comfortable performing?
I think most of us have been in this situation before. I always perform enough field work to assure that I am comfortable. If that takes an entire retracement survey, then so be it. Usually it doesn't.
Other questions though: Are you familiar with the other guy and feel confident in his work? Is the client/public being protected by the services you provide?
2007 isn't that long ago, so why should we resurvey half the world if somebody just paid to have it done (typical client question, and rightfully so)? I tend to not necessarily look for trouble, but always keep that eye open.
I don't know what state you're in, but reference to the recorded survey could suffice for a deed. Not so sure it helps the client, but likely would be legal 'per se. And the odds are good that you, as a surveyor, could write a better description from existing records, than any lawyer or assessor or god forbid, the realtor.
> What is your opinion? Is preparing a description from another surveyor's work an action you do/ do not feel comfortable performing?
It depends on just what qualifies as a "plat" in your neck of the woods. Here in Oregon a plat is specifically something that has been prepared to a definite standard of care, signed by multiple parties (including various city and county officials), checked over by the County Surveyors staff, and held in public record. Such plats cost several thousand dollars to produce, at a minimum. I'd have no problem preparing a legal description from such a document.
In some places "plat" seems to be just another word for "map" and such maps sometimes barely rise above the dignity of a sketch.
So it depends on the quality of the particular plat in question. If you use it, you accept responsibility for the errors and omissions of the surveyor who prepared it. If we are talking about a difference of a few hundred dollars of billing I just can't see why I'd want to accept that liability.
For clarity -
"plat" in this situation is a drawing prepared by and signed/stamped by a professional surveyor meeting the standards of practice outlined in 201 KAR 18:150
I am not sure how it is unprofessional to not blindly accept that someone else did their work meeting all the standards of practice and did not have any mistakes. In my opinion the unprofessional action would be copying information without validating it with your own visual inspection of the corners, chain of title, and measurements. No matter how good and conscientious someone else is, mistakes can and do happen.
If this same surveyor were asked something similar following my work, I would certainly not consider it a professional discourtesy to check everything I had done. I would be happy to provide him with all the data I could to help in his work. However, I would be disappointed to find that someone just copied my work without validating it for themselves.
As for being usury, I provided them with alternatives which would require no fee on my part - hardly shaking them down for money.
I have heard the other surveyors name a few times in passing, but have never followed behind any of his work. I do not recall if the times I heard his name were good or bad discussions.
"plat" in this situation is a drawing prepared by and signed/stamped by a professional surveyor meeting the standards of practice outlined in 201 KAR 18:150. This would require a full boundary survey with the requisite research and field work to produce the plat.
I'm just not too interested in accepting any accidental mistake someone else could have made. Especially when it could potentially be avoided by verifying the other was done correctly. As long as the other surveyor did a good job, retracing the survey (check records of subject and adjoiners, verify measurements, and produce documentation) should be simplified.
For clarity -
Much difference in blindly copying and reviewing with the intent of verification, compliance with statute and the correctness of the math. If it all looks good, it reflects what is in the record, then write them a description using the existing document used for the survey report and in the record and except out what the previous surveyor described including the source. Not a big deal, nor should it be.
jud
For clarity -
I have seen too many documents that on the face look good, but in reality are not correct. Having the math correct does not mean that the boundary analysis on drawing is correct. Having a document with all of the required statements and certifications does not mean it is correct.
Case in point being the right of way discussion I posted a while back ([msg=74585]Right of Way Post[/msg]). I could have prepared a description based on that plat, it would have unfortunately taken land area away from the original property and been incorrect.
Or how about the occasions when a field crew has found a ground rod instead of the corner marker.
Would it not be better for the land owner to have these things independently verified?
For clarity -
There is only one and a very clear answer, based on what you say. Recommend other surveyors for the work and move on.
jud
For clarity -
Why would I recommend that someone else do something that I do not believe is appropriate?
Anyway, she had contacted most of the surveyors I recommend if I can not accommodate a potential client - all (3 others) indicated that they would not write the description without their own survey. I will have to check with them to see if that is just their policy or if they know something about following the surveyor that did the plat being discussed.
For clarity -
You asked for an opinion, I freely gave mine as requested, take it or leave it.
jud
I don't see why it should be a problem. State in your contract the info the description will be based on and that your offer to provide an opinion on the boundaries was refused.
The only liability is if you don't know how to write a valid description, which of course you must know how to do.
The clients intent is to sell the parcel depicted on the map. You are liable if you fail to adequately describe that parcel, not for any deficiencies created by the other surveyor or anyone else. You are not garaunteeing title nor boundaries even if you did survey it (at least I hope not).
If surveyors will not perform these services then the owners, real estate agents, attorneys, etc. are going to do it; with far less desirable results.
Doing as your caller suggested would be in violation of the Surveyors' Act in Texas and in my opinion unethical. The general public would accept the new description as being a reliable survey product no matter what disclaimer was put in afterwards. Makes me appreciate the rules of Texas.
God Bless Texas
Around here most descriptions are created by attorneys, which routinely end their description by citing the surveyor whose map the description was based upon, and the date on the plat map.
I guess it's a regional thing
Here in Georgia "Legal Descriptions" may be written by anyone, including attorneys. I have sent digital copies of "Legals" to attorneys, only to have them retype them (and leave out a call). I have written legals from other surveyor's plats BUT I always include "As more particularly shown on a plat of survey for ABC as prepared by XYZ dated ***". Some of the legal descriptions here are copied from transfer to transfer for many years, correct or incorrect. Some are just plain impossible to put on the ground as per the description. THAT'S when the fun starts. I'd much prefer to follow a legal prepared by a Land Surveyor from someone else's plat than one prepared by a layman with no knowledge of how descriptions affect the property.
Andy
> Doing as your caller suggested would be in violation of the Surveyors' Act in Texas and in my opinion unethical. The general public would accept the new description as being a reliable survey product no matter what disclaimer was put in afterwards. Makes me appreciate the rules of Texas.
>
> God Bless Texas
Gene hits the nail squarely on the head.
Also, (my $0.02)
Let's just suppose that the plat / survey from another has an error, and the error perpetuates itself into the new description that you are preparing.
Your client and the public has been harmed by your actions.
(you are the expert & the public is relying upon you for sound advise)
(Laying blame on another after the fact (if there was an error) would be feeble)
My question to you is-
Why would you put yourself in such a situation?
How does anything get done in Texas? I mean, if you are forbidden from writing a description based on anothers survey, aren't you also forbidden from performing a survey based on anothers description? After all, the same arguments would apply both ways.
Surveyors are not forbidden from preparing descriptions of property that others have surveyed. It is expected however, that the surveyor will actually perform the minimum standard (Re: must be done on the ground) survey prior to affixing his seal to the description. We are fortunate that the laws in Texas preclude any from preparing land descriptions (including pesky attorneys) other than Registered Surveyors. We are not forced to perform a service that is less than the minimum standard just to keep others from doing it.
God Bless Texas
Jon, here's the bottom line: your 3 buddies turned down the job. There's an old saying, "When it comes to peanuts, 10,000 monkeys can't be wrong." Listen to the monkeys. Let the attorneys mess it up. They do not get sued for doing that, they are omnipotent and bullet proof. You are not.
