I looked for a thread on this & couldn't fine one, but there is likely a discussion somewhere but I don't see one. One of my mentors in my early days of my surveying apprenticeship was originally registered in Ohio & when I knew him, he was the head cadastral surveyor for the U.S. Forest Service in S.C.. S.C. is a "Metes & Bounds" State. We were looking at logging road which was, as best that I can recall, called for as the property boundary between government land & a private tract. He said that if the road location changed over time, so would the boundary, unless it was surveyed & platted. I am surveying a tract of land that has a private road between it & the adjoiner. The road is graded (it is dirt) by the County & has a County name but it is not a County road. The road was surveyed & the property line down it's centerline was monumented but the irones that marked the lines were claimed by the County motor grader long ago. Am I correct in showing the property line as the line retraced from the reference plat or should I use the actual location of the existing road? I haven't read the deed yet but I believe the deed will call for the plat. What if the deed calls for the road?
there are way too many variables... we need to see the deed.
the statement of your past mentor could be true, or not.
(surveying and plating is just an inventory, it don't "do" nuttin)
Even when platted and dedicated, the location could control the line. If accepted monuments are in place then it would be wise to uphold their location.
As you say, there are no monuments. The first thing that I would do is locate the entire road and plot the survey/deed and see how it all compares. You may find that each end matches well and at that point really dig into the deed(s) and see how it was originally defined.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In this case, the route/center line was surveyed. That is where the road should be, even if it isn't. The original intent was that the road be in that location. Thus, just because it wandered away does not mean it is automatically the new location. Various states have differing laws on such things. Delve into the specifics, possibly with the aid of a knowledgeable attorney before declaring the current route to be a property line.
Holy Cow, post: 398641, member: 50 wrote: ..Thus, just because it wandered away does not mean it is automatically the new location..
I'll pay you good money to come down here and explain that to a couple of our County Commissioners.
a really good question, start with what Peter said, exactly how is the deed worded?
[USER=20]@paden cash[/USER]
I bet you've had some interesting discussions on this issue. You know the correct answer is, "It depends."
Several years ago I was hired by a local city to find the platted location of a very narrow street, the actual location at that time and the precise location of a freshly-created tree stump. A lot owner was claiming the city had devalued his real estate by cutting down that wonderful tree that was on his property. The city claimed it was their tree because it was too close to the traveled path of their street and, thus, was within their street limits. The city ended up paying a large sum for the tree plus their attorney fees despite their claim to a prescriptive easement, I believe.
Your mileage may vary.
In general terms, a call for an artificial monument is not ambulatory. It fixes at the date of the creation of the boundary. The road may move and new rights may develop, but the boundary will remain unchanged in all but the rarest of cases.
Holy Cow, post: 398652, member: 50 wrote: [USER=20]@paden cash[/USER]
I bet you've had some interesting discussions on this issue. You know the correct answer is, "It depends."
Several years ago I was hired by a local city to find the platted location of a very narrow street, the actual location at that time and the precise location of a freshly-created tree stump. A lot owner was claiming the city had devalued his real estate by cutting down that wonderful tree that was on his property. The city claimed it was their tree because it was too close to the traveled path of their street and, thus, was within their street limits. The city ended up paying a large sum for the tree plus their attorney fees despite their claim to a prescriptive easement, I believe.
Your mileage may vary.
My main complaint is the county commissioners taking their 4 rods of R/W by splitting the road bed and not centering it on the section line. In my attempt to keep my REC client's poles within a proper easement can get tricky. I don't know many times I've tried to explain the section line was nowhere near the center of the clear roadway...only to get the standard deer in headlight look with crickets chirping in the background.
@ https://surveyorconnect.com/community/members/geometric.8346/&apos ;">GEOMETRIC: I suppose we need to wait until tomorrow for the deed?
knowing what State this is in would also help.
Is a road a natural monument?
Dave Karoly, post: 398665, member: 94 wrote: Is a road a natural monument?
I have a hard time defining a "road" as natural:
Monument-yes; Natural-no.
Even a creek when called for as a natural monument if the course is changed by man then the boundary stays in the original location of the creek at the time of conveyance. If it changes by natural occurrence then the boundary changes.
I believe in a call for a roadway then the boundary would be fixed on the location of the roadway at the time the description was made regardless of how many times it has been changed.
My 0.02
mattsib79, post: 398679, member: 1138 wrote: If it changes by natural occurrence then the boundary changes.
Not necesarily. If the change in a waterway is gradual the boundary changes. But if it is avulsive there is no change in the boundary.
I believe that any change to a roadway by the action of a motor grader or other equipment would have to be considered avulsive.
The OPs mentor may have been thinking that, in the absence of actual record survey data, the current location of a road may be the best evidence of the former location of the road, even where the suspicion is strong that the road has wandered over time.
However with no maintenance, on side hills, roads do gradually move with normal use...
would that not be similar to water ways?
Here in Ca., I had the question of whether a deed for a right of way that was called to follow a private road without bearings and distances would stay fixed to its original location or would move with the road as it may change over time. I asked who I consider to be a very good real estate attorney here and her response was that it depends on what the parties did.
paden cash, post: 398643, member: 20 wrote: I'll pay you good money to come down here and explain that to a couple of our County Commissioners.
"County Commissioners do not decide where property boundaries are"
We have the same problem with wandering boundaries and wandering road locations.
Some new surveyor comes in and places the boundary at today's location of the center of the oiled roadway without considering called distances, witness to monuments, adjoining property deed calls and location of the actual road margins.
While road center lines may wonder, the margins of roads rarely change.
I am in the middle of a survey between neighbors where the newest one has a different opinion where his boundary is than his surveyor shows in a survey made in 2005 and which his title holds to.
He is simply a bully that thinks he has more money and power than my client.
He is very wrong and has no chance to win this battle.
It has been difficult to simply get a copy of a deed with the correct copy of his description as he will not let loose with a copy of his survey.
Two deeds, his warranty deed to him and his wife and one from him and his wife to their family trust, had incomplete deed descriptions.
Knowledge of this and He still would not come forth with a copy.
After informing the attorney that prepared the deeds that his client has not given proper notice to the public with his "incorrect deed description" and bringing notice of the fact to the title company that wrote his policy, amazingly, a new correct deed suddenly appeared on record.
The truth will prevail in the end.
Back to roads, road movement caused by road maintenance is not considered a natural act.
The boundaries that fall within and around areas where there are roads, highway and other means of travel are relocated in the same way other boundaries are without paying attention to the location of where the road is today.
I suggest reading through a pretty widely accepted book by Walter Robbilard called "Evidence and Procedures for Boundary Location". It has some pretty good advice on this topic. There are several updates, but I am sure any one you get your hands on would he helpful.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
Jweiss, post: 398709, member: 11740 wrote: I suggest reading through a pretty widely accepted book by Walter Robbilard called "Evidence and Procedures for Boundary Location". It has some pretty good advice on this topic. There are several updates, but I am sure any one you get your hands on would he helpful.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
It's is an update of the original by Curtis Brown.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
Seems like more people on here have disagreements with Robilard's philosophy than with the original Brown version.