I have read many discussions about pincushions monuments issues over the years on this site and in various articles. But I have to admit I was a bit surprised when I saw this (item "H") while brushing up on the counties monumentation policy. Mind you this was written originally in 1997 and obviously updated in 2000.
If the errored monument is less than a foot away, I personally disagree with it.
A license to pincushion at will
What will they think of next? A license to destroy anything found because it is obviously old and therefore worthless.
Whomever wrote that has no idea what they are talking about. They should probably get that reviewed by the county or city attorney.
I once found an old railroad spike of record that had 7 discernible punches on it. Expert measurers strike again!
o.O
Define
"Out of position". Is that 0.04', 1.0' 10'? I've been extremely happy, on occasion, to find a monument within 50'. In MY opinion, if I find a monument that fits closely with record (depending on several other factors) and it appears undisturbed, and has been relied on then it marks the corner. Just because my measurement may vary doesn't mean its not the corner.
Andy
seems okay to me
> I have read many discussions about pincushions monuments issues over the years on this site and in various articles. But I have to admit I was a bit surprised when I saw this (item "H") while brushing up on the counties monumentation policy. Mind you this was written originally in 1997 and obviously updated in 2000.
>
> If the errored monument is less than a foot away, I personally disagree with it.
>
>
Maybe I'm missing something, but the rule seems okay to me. All they are saying is,"if you decide NOT to hold a found pin (for whatever reason), then you must set your own and NOT disturb the found pin".
I would assume Out of Position just means that the corner is no longer at the location of the Original Monument.
Define
And therein lies the rub... Where do you draw the line on "out of position"? It is not specified in any way.
The only guideline we have is from the LS Act of California which states "§8762 ¶(3) Evidence that, by reasonable analysis, might result in materially alternate positions of lines or points, shown on any subdivision map, official map, or record of survey previously recorded or filed in the office of the county recorder or the county surveying department".
Which is open to a lot of interpretation. "Materially alternate positions" has no tolerances assigned to it, which leaves us hanging out there.
o.O
seems okay to me
Well the point is that in many areas we are seeing multiple monuments each proclaiming to be the true and correct location for the titled corner. This county policy is promoting the same issue and I disagree with it.
Nothing but confusion and distrust of our profession will come of it. How can we explain to our customers which surveyor has marked the actual corner? Case in point: Why did 3 or more surveyors put points within .3' of each other? Why can they not agree for such slight differences? Do you see how confusing this policy is? It is for many of us.
Define
If it is the Original Monument and it has not been moved, then it is NOT out of position (no matter what the math says)
Define
Agreed. But, that's another topic..;-)
seems okay to me
I'm with Perry. The policy is not confusing to those who actually know how to determine a land boundary. You should be concerned about those who don't know how to implement it, rather than the policy itself.
Define
> Which is open to a lot of interpretation. "Materially alternate positions" has no tolerances assigned to it, which leaves us hanging out there.
>
That is because there is no such thing as a measurement tolerance being the one and only determinable factor on whether a monument is actually occupying a corner or not. That is a fact based (legal) determination, not a scientific one. Surveyors, of all people, should understand this basic concept. IF we understand this, then we are not left "hangin out there". Texas not withstanding.
drifted off
This seems to have drifted off topic some. It is not about boundary. Or lines. But monuments and whether to set them under certain conditions or not according to a given policy. If the original monument is "out of position" then it may have been disturbed. Under those conditions the policy is not confusing. But there is many different possibilities for "out of position".
virtual pin cushions.
> This seems to have drifted off topic some. It is not about boundary. Or lines. But monuments and whether to set them under certain conditions or not according to a given policy. If the original monument is "out of position" then it may have been disturbed. Under those conditions the policy is not confusing. But there is many different possibilities for "out of position".
Maybe they implemented to rule because some surveyors will call a monument out-of-position but will not man-up and set their own. This situation creates a virtual pin-cushion (worse than a pin-cushion)
drifted off
Okay, then let's try this question. What exactly does the policy make you do that you otherwise would not do? As far as I can tell, all it asks is that you monument your own determination and not disturb other markers that may be another professionals opinion that differs from your own or may be a goat stake the owner uses. That is common practice. Don't destroy evidence, don't destroy landowner property, perpetuate your own professional opinion so others know what it is.
If you are seeing pincushions it's not because of this policy. If the opinion is 0.3 feet away, it should be monumented for all to see.
Hiding incorrect boundary determination does not make it go away.
County of Riverside Ca. has a whole different take on it!
From their "Map Preparation Manual" or Bible
i.____ If position has a controlling influence on the survey, then set a
monument at the “true position,” without disturbing the
existing monument. In cases where the discrepancy is
“minor” and a new monument cannot be set without
disturbing the existing monument, then emphasis should be
given to accepting the found monument. Use measured data
vs. record data to indicate/highlight any discrepancies in the
data.
The rest of the Bible can be found at....
http://www.rctlma.org/trans/survey_map_check.htmlhttp://www.rctlma.org/trans/survey_map_check.html
Jp
Pincushion monuments> Whoa Nellie
Is anyone else disturbed that municipalities are directing survey regulations?
Pincushion monuments> Whoa Nellie
Not really, they have been doing that for centuries. Much of the east has had laws requiring fencing the boundary and even appointed people to inspect and make sure it was done.
Found another example from the same Bible that found monuments should hold (most of the time)in Riverside County......
"Do not set a monument where the Tract Boundary intersects a street centerline (unless said position is a centerline intersection). This eliminates/minimizes unwanted angle
points in street centerlines."
Jp
Pincushion monuments> Whoa Nellie
I have mixed feelings about it. After working the first 20 years in place that over regulates and creates Bibles like I linked to above and now working in a place that a surveyor can stake a deed and file a map with a simple check list review from a County surveyor I would say the public is much better served in the first scenario. When the public would ask me a property question I use to say, you need a survey. Now I have to qualify it and say you need a good survey from a quality surveyor. It is sad but true. My 2 cents, Jp
