Parol Testimony

Included in a few reports I have prepared over the years were testimonies of locals concerning the location of original monuments, long since obliterated, but perpetuated by owner placed monumentation. One in particular was an over 80 year old fellow that remembered his father and uncle replacing a scribed post with a more prominent large cedar trunk. The cedar trunk was still there after 65 years and the measurements fit. It was the old man that mentioned the scribing he remembered on the "guvmit" post, I did not even mention any "original" monument. He volunteered that info and I took it as gospel.

In the Oklahoma panhandle (where fences are optional) I have restored "lost" corners that fit the time-honored plow patterns in an eerily accurate fashion. A post or pits and mounds were set originally, long since gone. But the windrows and the plow patterns reflected the location originally set some 100 years earlier. Although the 'parol' evidence wasn't spoken in human words, the evidence "spoke" for itself.

Interesting. Thank you.

Yes, I've used it and relied on it, but only when trying to prove a hunch or verify the meaning of an uncalled for stone, post, blaze, etc. Never used it or gave it much of a thought where it contradicted existing monuments, deeds, or upset the harmony of all the other evidence.

My favorite example was a developer for whom my former boss was doing a subdivision back in the day. Developer was going to cut down a bunch of huge maple trees along the State road. A little old lady from across the streeet came out and said "don't you dare -- I remember my father planting those when I was just a little girl." Developer said he had the right to cut the trees on his own land. My boss, to his credit, went to do some more research and found the original layout for the road. It had been laid out alongside an old original settlers' lot line and therefore lay entirely on the old lady's land, (thus rebutting the presumption that its centerline was the lot line, this type of road being an easement and not a fee taking, Boss called the developer and told him the old gal was right. The trees are likely still there.

A witness saying exactly where a corner was set may be suspect, but most parole evidence is a statement why something else was set where it was. That should hold more weight.

I can reference many corners set by my father (not a surveyor, but under PA Law he could survey on his own property) that he had talked about, but that is mere hearsay. I can however give parol evidence as to the location of a missing beech tree corner that was monumented after the fact by my father and the adjoiner by setting a PTO shaft in a swampy area, I was there when it was set.

As to faulty memory, it is true that witnesses of an act not thinking it was important at the time may vary in their retelling, but then consider "Beating the Bounds". Most people know that land corners are important and have better recall of such events. It may not even require witnessing the actual event; John walks around the farm with his father, uncle or grandfather and sees an old post, after a few years he sees a pipe near the post and after a few more years the post is gone. Now John's elder may never have said "that pipe monuments the post" and he elder my not have been present when the neighbor or his surveyor set the pipe, but still John knows where it is.

BTW, are you in fact Andrew Ellicott, or for what reason do you claim the moniker?

Paul in PA

I lived in Ellicott City, MD for a while and when I was thinking of a username I thought why not go with a famous surveyor? Maybe it's a bit odd but I don't care.

A bit of history from one of the boards that came before this one. We had a regular participant who identified himself as Carlos Hathcock. Some other participants took offense to his use of that pseudonym. It grew ugly on a couple of occasions.

Truthfully, I had not heard of Carlos Hathcock so didn't understand all the fuss until I did a little search. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Hathcock

I didn't think choosing this name would be controversial. Maybe I was wrong, but hopefully people don't take offense to my username on an internet forum.

Holy Cow, post: 328135, member: 50 wrote: A bit of history from one of the boards that came before this one. We had a regular participant who identified himself as Carlos Hathcock. Some other participants took offense to his use of that pseudonym. It grew ugly on a couple of occasions.

Truthfully, I had not heard of Carlos Hathcock so didn't understand all the fuss until I did a little search. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Hathcock

Silliness, imho. While I prefer to use my real name, if pseudonyms are permitted, then all ' s fair. If we want to get uptight about it, I for one suspect that you are neither venerated nor bovine.

According to some, I'm more closely related to another quadruped sometimes connected with the State of Missouri.

I much prefer the use of pseudonyms here and encourage others to consider using them. I passed along the Carlos Hathcock incident because I was shocked at what happened on the old board.

There is a very real hazard to using one's name on the internet. Most disagree with that. They, too, shall learn eventually. Maybe we should all use our Social Security numbers as our identity here.

Here (Tasmania) I've used such evidence but only if it has a fair degree of support from other forms of evidence.
Like Paden, old plow lines still evident can often be supported by probing and finding old post holes.

I'm always suspicious when a landowner volunteers before my asking,where and why boundaries are. "Great Uncle .... put the post exactly where the surveyors peg was..." is typically a warning to take the advice with a big slice of suspicion.
I'm not sure I can remember if any such advice ever proved correct.

On other hand, not uncommon to find evidence after the fact of lumps of steel, concrete blocks that when questioned the owner states were placed there to preserve the corner.

All part of the intrigue of chasing lost boundaries.

I was on a boundary survey recently where I spoke with the adjoiner regarding the property. He stated that the iron pipe between my client and his own property was surely wrong. "Twernt 10 years back they was pushing dirt around in that area and I seen 'em slide that pipe over." This from an old timer who has lineage going back nearly 100 years on this particular property. So I took it pretty seriously. His property had been surveyed and I found his other front corner (not where he thought it was, mind you...) and the check between them left me 0.06' of error. If they pushed that pipe over and replaced it, they did a wonderful job. Sometimes parole testimony is fueled by misinformation or even worse, greed. After his story, he got quite upset that I was checking his frontage to confirm the pipes location. I generally take peoples word with a pretty hefty grain of salt until the facts are checked.

Hinging a survey on one person's memory is surely shaky ground. Property owners' opinions on the actual location of their corners is similar to asking a mass murderer's mother about her child's guilt or innocence; you will probably never get a unbiased opinion. Reports from residents are just one scintilla of evidence to be weighed. All evidence requires a corroborative reliability to be derived from the other bits and pieces. Rather than discussing a monument's location with someone, I prefer general information such as "how long has that fence been there?" or "when did the county open the road?".

I once had an older gentleman tell me he could show me the original surveyor's "mark" at a quarter corner (where no road had ever been built). After a trek through the woods he proudly pointed out a dead tree trunk that had been used for years as the corner post for fences radiating in each cardinal direction. A little visual inspection revealed it was indeed a surveyor's "mark". It was a bearing tree mentioned in the original notes, some forty feet from the actual corner's location.

There was one case when I was able to prove a fellow had been dishonest. An earlier surveyor had this fellow swear, on paper, to the information provided. As I had known this particular fellow my entire life and had worked for him some I knew his idea of the truth didn't normally match the facts. Nevertheless, the other surveyor had taken his word as gospel and set a monument for a section corner accordingly. Thirty-some years later the adjoiner calls me to do a survey defining the line between his land and that of the "swearer". A railroad angled across two section lines within 600 feet of this particular section corner. The strip map indicated the distance from each section line crossing to a stone at the corner. The government filed notes reported a stone of certain dimensions having been set there. I brought in a backhoe and promptly discovered a stone of those dimensions within inches of the current railroad center lines recorded distances. In the meantime, both the first surveyor and the "swearer" had died. The difference discovered was nearly 30 feet.

The untruth sworn to had moved the line such that an existing culvert on an abandoned county road fell entirely on the "swearer" side of the line thus denying convenient access to the adjoiner to a significant chunk of his farm. Later, the "swearer" repeatedly tried to buy that chunk because it was so difficult to access by the true owner.

I had to rely on oral testimony once in a rural setting and the situation that you posted. It was farmland (sugar cane) that included some swampy woods in a rural setting in Louisiana about a few hours away from me. The property was land that was owned by a coworker of a company that I worked for at the time. It was a partition*. Not much as far as monumentation except for a few found rebars and a pipe on one side of the tract but that line was still not totally monumented. The courthouse was small so I thought that I could ‰Û÷pull‰Ûª titles and surveys but that proved to be deep black hole as I dug into the records**. I did find a few documents and one hand sketch of the land with no survey info. There was a rental trailer on the property but they had no clue to the boundaries. I got in touch with one of the heirs who was aware of my activities and met him at the site. I told him of my survey and research. I had traversed the perimeter tying the few irons, ditches and assorted fence posts here and there.***
He was farming cane on the land. He was friendly and understood my problem. He took me to an old tree remains that he claimed to was used as an east/west and N/E control point of the boundary.**** He then showed me a very old iron(big tine)from some farm equipment that was set as a witness to the tree by all parties concerned many, many years ago before he was born. After meeting with him, things started to make sense and I could expand my search for additional evidence and investigate previous areas that I searched in a much smaller search area.***** It took a while but everything got done to everyone‰Ûªs satisfaction. I encountered and learned some important things on this job. I have asterisked them.

*In the old days, the land was portioned to give the sons the best suited for cultivation so it would protect the land from a daughter marrying someone who might jeopardize the family‰Ûªs livelihood. Daughters received swamp or low lands not suited for farming and subject to flooding. Son's received the best farming land.
** The older records were all in French. Even some of the early 20th century was in French also. In the 1930‰Ûªs, the WPA assigned workers to translate the records. I happen to notice that the WPA translated records were redacted and some of the originals were redacted in ink. I was told that the WPA was instructed to remove any information about who owned slaves or any info about slaves associated with property. This was in Napoleonville, LA along Bayou Teche which was primarily a French settlement but also German immigrants who were assimilated into the French culture more than the American culture. Names and customs became Franco based and not Americanized.
***. When I met him at the site, I put my folder on the hood of the truck and started showing him the documents and maps that I had copied at the courthouse. It was after a few minutes that I noticed that none of these papers that I was "showing" had absolutely no interest to him. Then I realized that he was illiterate. This man was a hardworking, salt of the earth farmer his whole life and probably did not go to school in order to work on the farm. He could speak English and French but could not read or write either at all. It did not hinder him from growing sugar cane and being successful.
**** The remains of the tree and old farm iron were in a very open and visible site. It was set by the farmers at the beginning in an open place where everyone could SEE where it was and respect it. There was sort of a buffer area along this line were farm equipment/ workers could maneuver on either tract.
***** Using info that he provided, I researched the NEasterly corner of the tract that was a low land woods subject to flooding. I found an original 19th GLO cypress post. This is the only time that I found or saw an original post on a job in Louisiana after surveying for decades. It matched in size and description and was identical to one that was on display in Baton Rouge at the State Land Office. Problem was that it was laid-out on the ground. It could have been set anywhere in the immediate area. I have seen original pine posts and pine knots in my area but never saw a cypress post except behind the glass on display in Baton Rouge. So it did "show" me that these original posts can be still out there when I had come to believe that they were extinct.

andrew_ellicott, post: 328034, member: 10216 wrote: Dear wise, experienced land surveyors of 'https://surveyorconnect.com&apos ;">www.surveyorconnect.com': .... acts of reliable testimony...

I would certainly emphasize the word "reliable" over testimony. They might remember certain details that makes it more certain that they knew exactly where it was. They might remember certain surrounding events that make it clear they know what they are talking about. Things like "I remember my daddy measured a foot in from that old stone to set his fence corner" might be much more reliable than "No I own much more land that that". There might be more corroborating evidence that matches their testimony as well. You have to weight "all" the evidence in making a determination, including physical evidence on the ground, interviewing other people, measurement etc.

Had one project where after an afternoon of searching for a corner all I could find was a section of PVC pipe poking up out of the ground. I was about to give up when an old man approached to ask what I was doing. Several minutes of small talk later the old man told me if I wanted to find that corner I better be prepared to dig 20' down. He went on to tell me that the previous owners has brought in a substantial amount of fill, but had the foresight to place a 20' section of PVC pipe over the corner before bring on all that fill. Based on his testimony I accepted the pipes position as the best evidence of the corner's position. Without his memory I would have written the pipe off as junk.

How many times have you had an elderly landowner offer to show you where the corners are...they walk directly to a small depression and swipe some leaves away with their foot...maybe say "It should be right here..." You wag your detector in the shallow depression and get a loud buzz. "See I knew it was there...dig down there a little bit...I bet its buried."

You find a shiny yellow cap on a re-bar located about .5' from an old wooden fence and they say..."that is not the corner...It's a little rusty pipe. It used to be right next to the fence."
You reference the location of the re-bar and pull it out and listen again with the detector. You get a faint buzz which gets louder as you dig. In the bottom of the hole, exactly under the face of the fence, is a small rusty pipe. "Yup that's it...now I know for sure where the other corners are. Want me to show them to you?"

As people age, their short term memory starts to fade, but their brain starts to pull amazingly specific details from strange places. They might not remember who their kids are, but they can remember every conversation they had 50 years ago, on what day it happened and what color shirt they were wearing.

"As people age, their short term memory starts to fade, but their brain starts to pull amazingly specific details from strange places. They might not remember who their kids are, but they can remember every conversation they had 50 years ago, on what day it happened and what color shirt they were wearing.

You just described me perfectly.

A couple of days ago Mrs. Cow shows me a picture of a handsome young lad in his football uniform for a Division I university. He looks a lot like me and shares the surname. She foolishly says, "Any relation?" I foolishly respond with, "I'm not sure. What's his mother's name?" WRONG,WRONG,WRONG!