"Our company doesn't Mentor"

Trundle, post: 401200, member: 12120 wrote: Should I accept a job here, if offered?

Unless you need the paycheck, or have to to protect your UI benefits, I think that you have already answered that question yourself.

In their favor, most places are not so honest about it. At least they are clear about expectations.

Trundle,

In order to expand your opportunities please state where you are, where you are willing to go and your background, experience and education that puts you on an LS track.

BTW, at the company you just interviewed, if they give no guidance to employees how can anyone at that company be legally in responsible charge? The State Board just might want to investigate their professional procedures.

Paul in PA

If an employer doesn't want you to better yourself they fear whatever new knowledge you gain will just either cost them more money to keep you or you will leave for greener pastures. If you want to keep moving up or taking on more responsibility then take a job else where if you want to stay in the same position several years if not the rest of your career then take the job.
Nothing wrong wiht their approach but IMO every company should want to hire people who want to better themselves but also "secretly" hope that some good employees stay content with the current situation. Any employee that wants to learn more should be given the opportunity at work as long as they put in the effort outside of work, and if they leave it's just part of being in business but if they stay it's a great chance to grow their business

At least they warned you up front as to the simplemindedness that runs the firm. There are greener pastures elsewhere.

Paul in PA, post: 401213, member: 236 wrote:
In order to expand your opportunities please state where you are, where you are willing to go and your background, experience and education that puts you on an LS track.

BTW, at the company you just interviewed, if they give no guidance to employees how can anyone at that company be legally in responsible charge? The State Board just might want to investigate their professional procedures.
Paul in PA

Paul, I am an LSIT in Indiana, although a majority of my survey experience was done in one of 3 other states (all PLSS states as well). I have over 10+ years surveying (both field and office).

The firm I left was an engineering/landscape architecture firm. They just happened to have an LS on staff to support their operations, but everything was geared towards the civil design section. I literally got no instruction on anything there, and setting up my computer (sitting on my desk in a box when I walked in my first day) I introduced myself to my boss, who shooed me away. (This was the LS who actively discouraged me - once he finally acknowledged my presence - from taking the exam because of "stress").

The firm I interviewed with had an assembly line type production. They had LS's do the boundary, easements, and notes.... and drafters do the labeling and general drafting. I explained how I was extremely comfortable taking a job from scratch and completing it 100% (everything but signing), but they didn't seem to care - "We let the LS do the survey stuff, we want you to draft". This firm seems to specialize in in high volume, fast turn around lot/block ALTA's for financing.

Yes, they were upfront about it. And Mark Mayer was correct in that I already knew the answer, deep down. I was more interested if anyone else had ever run across this situation before, and if they worked around it. I'm also kind of worried that this "no mentor" mentality is just SOP for Indiana, or for larger firms in general?

Trundle, post: 401218, member: 12120 wrote: Paul, I am an LSIT in Indiana, although a majority of my survey experience was done in one of 3 other states (all PLSS states as well). I have over 10+ years surveying (both field and office).

The firm I left was an engineering/landscape architecture firm. They just happened to have an LS on staff to support their operations, but everything was geared towards the civil design section. (This was the LS who actively discouraged me from taking the exam because of "stress").

The firm I interviewed with had an assembly line type production. They had LS's do the boundary, easements, and notes.... and drafters do the labeling and general drafting. I explained how I was extremely comfortable taking a job from scratch and completing it 100% (everything but signing), but they didn't seem to care - "We let the LS do the survey stuff, we want you to draft". This firm seems to specialize in in high volume, fast turn around lot/block ALTA's for financing.

Yes, they were upfront about it. And Mark Mayer was correct in that I already knew the answer, deep down. I was more interested if anyone else had ever run across this situation before, and if they worked around it.

Just some advice. I don't think you meant it the way it came out but don't sell your self in manner that portrays that you can do everything but the signing. This will rub the right company and hiring manager the wrong way. You need to portray yourself in a way that shows the hiring manager that you feel comfortable doing everything except solving boundaries.

TXSurveyor, post: 401220, member: 6719 wrote: You need to portray yourself in a way that shows the hiring manager that you feel comfortable doing everything except solving boundaries.

It's possible it did come out wrong... I feel very comfortable solving boundaries in all but the most difficult cases (and even then, I'll always present the LS with at least 2 "possibilities" of what I think the correct solution is). But I feel confident with anything that's platted, an aliquot part, or metes and bounds with no ambiguity. That is the part that I try to convey...

I think everyone here has offered some very good advice.

There are firms that are geared for production and tend to manage their sea of warm bodies in a similar manner. I'm sure there's probably a great deal one could learn sitting at a "production screen". I also wonder about the amount of that knowledge that might actually be applicable toward a career as a professional land surveyor. Lord knows MY biggest hurdle has always been getting the job together on the "screen".

If you're strapped and need a paycheck, give them a whirl. They can't eat you, only let you go.

But if it were me, I would be hearing Jenny hollering, "Run Forest, run!".

On the other hand there is the possibility that it would be a good opportunity to learn about streamlining operations and drafting. If they put out solid product and have a good work environment it might not be the worst place to work.

Nope, your pursuit of licensure is your business, not your employers. Surely they'll chime in concerning a testimonial that you worked under the guidance of an LS for X years when you apply for the test. The best companies I worked for actively promoted employees to gain their LS through chits to attend seminars, evening study events where the LS would go over mundane stuff like GLO, GPS errors, and the shovel is the most powerful tool an LS has in his quiver, and Friday afternoon briefings where the shop LS provided a training overview of the week's activities. Rest assured you put your time in at a good LS run shop for the requisite years it'll pay when you apply for licensure, even if you were a CAD monkey.

OTOH, once licensed I ran into job interviews where during negotiations I asked for ACSM conventions time off and costs. Nay! They said that stuff is on my vacation time and personal costs, I'm an LS and better perform as one, no "education" time off. That's fair; many other aspects of employment involved a free cell phone, company car, gas card (which could be easily abused ), so the negotiations were rather involved. The final papers were a compromise, but $120,000/yr was sweet, after performance incentives kicked in. I hate to say it, but having been a surveyor since 1969, from a brushman to running 7 crews and finally being the office guy it paid off. Retired now at 65 with a nice pension/SocialSecurity/annuities situation that will cover my costs 'till I'm dead in spades. It may be the profession has deteriorated recently due to technological improvements ( a GPS in every car) but still a top guy with a cold assessment of what is really happening is worth enough concerning accurate topology and boundary issues will get his weight in gold in big projects.

Maybe they have free coffee and bagels?

Honestly it's tough to mentor. the managers have to keep everyone billable, tough to bill for 2 guys what can be done with 1. I usually have my young guy out topoing, he can do it well. I can't send him boundry, alta etc... without experience so one of us LS will do that stuff.

Jon Collins, post: 401235, member: 11135 wrote: Maybe they have free coffee and bagels?

Honestly it's tough to mentor. the managers have to keep everyone billable, tough to bill for 2 guys what can be done with 1. I usually have my young guy out topoing, he can do it well. I can't send him boundry, alta etc... without experience so one of us LS will do that stuff.

I could do this job in my sleep. I've worked as a production tech before, where I did everything (including boundaries). I understand the billable part, and am not worried about it.

For me, the "mentoring" part isn't about seminars or hand holding...it's about understanding why this line was held instead if that. Or how you arrived at the boundary solution, given an ambiguous deed with a disturbed monument, or something along those lines.

Worked for a company that had partners, associates and drones.
For 3 years I had a paycheck and worked with a bunch of folks that would stab their parents in the back to better themselves.
The surveyor did send in the reference form when I applied to test for my license.
I basically told him the BOR expected that to be the ethic responsibility of any licensed surveyor.
Still, whether a company takes time to teach, much is learned on any job simply by doing and watching others.
I learned many things to never do from that company.
The still exist, have been totally overhauled and are up to current measures today and would still stab anyone in the back to stay their ground.

I worked for a few people that only invested in their own pockets. It was a learning experience, but only until something worthwhile came up.
We need to change renewal requirements from continuing education to mentoring hours. This Profession can only be passed on by Professionals..

A Harris, post: 401244, member: 81 wrote: Worked for a company that had partners, associates and drones.....would stab parents in the back to better themselves.

That sounds just like the firm I left, only the people there seemed to actually enjoy undermining each other. I don't want to repeat that experience.

Trundle,
As far as an SOP for Indiana, this is the exception from any conversation with a fellow professional in years. I agree in a corporate production setting, it takes a lot more commitment by both parties, and roles may be pretty specific.
You have to pay the bills, but maybe long term you should look at a midsize to small firm where you are a key part of the process.
Keep in mind, mentoring isn't always pretty, and comes in small doses. Although after you hose a job up really good and need some guidance to fix it ASAP then it may pour out. . .

callen, post: 401249, member: 6231 wrote: Trundle,
As far as an SOP for Indiana, this is the exception from any conversation with a fellow professional in years. I agree in a corporate production setting, it takes a lot more commitment by both parties, and roles may be pretty specific.
You have to pay the bills, but maybe long term you should look at a midsize to small firm where you are a key part of the process.
Keep in mind, mentoring isn't always pretty, and comes in small doses. Although after you hose a job up really good and need some guidance to fix it ASAP then it may pour out. . .

Most of my survey experience has been in other states, but this is the second company in Indiana I've encountered that seems to be against professional development. At the place I just left, the LS would berate me in front of the owner for using the wrong font and then proceed to ignore/avoid me saying "I'll fix it myself, I don't have time to babysit you"(that statement was the reason I left).

I'm not against production work, and am very good at it (I learned Autocad LONG before I ever did any surveying). I'm just looking at the longer term, and worried I will have to relocate to get licenced because that's "just how things work here".

It's refreshing to hear those instances might be flukes.

The outfit I work for now has more offices than my last employer had people. They have invested heavily in me, funding 2 licenses and CFEDS in just this first year.
Make clear what you want up front, and don't settle for a job you won't enjoy. That means finding someone willing to invest in a way that matches your effort.
Best of luck, Tom

Jesus, sounds familiar.

Im not licensed and nowhere near the level of expertice on this board.

But as a driller by trade, I watched my company routinely underpay and stab surveyors in the back.

Ive since switched companies and now im the surveyor and I NEED a mentor/schooling. im lost lol. but somehow im making $8/hour more than my experienced counterparts at my previous company.

Surveying, its a weird profession(IMO)

Id take the job BUT with your best interest in mind ie temporary employment