A typical PLSS Section consists of 8 corners, or 8 originally monumented corners.
It's rare to find one with all 8 still in place, I did find a couple of these in the last township I ran, but usually there is at least one corner missing in a section, taken out by fences, farming, road building, something.
We were discussing it in the office trying to remember some and mostly can't think of any.
I had one a couple of years ago on an old family ranch (2012), but that's the last one till the township this year.
We just wondered how often others come across one.
Never would be the answer here. Maybe 80 percent or more were stake and pits and nearly all of those locations would be in the middle of some kind of county, city, state or US roadway. Nearly 100 percent of the remaining 20 percent were stones. Very rare to find any other type of corner, although I do remember a few that were an X scribed on bedrock. We have some success at finding the stones. Found one earlier this week, in fact.
I've never done that.
I have never had the priviledge to experience that, and seriously doubt I ever will unfortunately. I recall when I first came in to the Powder River Basin of Wyoming in the early 80s and prior to most of the BLM resurveys... 8 original corners was often what you recovered in a TOWNSHIP (if you were lucky). Talking with guys from the BLM who resurveyed many townships, there were a number of townships where no original stones were recovered in the entire township, (but was still done as a dependant resurvey). One of the reasons that nearly all surveyors in this region were so happy to have the BLM conducting resurveys.
Dave Vliem, post: 355805, member: 7055 wrote: I have never had the priviledge to experience that, and seriously doubt I ever will unfortunately. I recall when I first came in to the Powder River Basin of Wyoming in the early 80s and prior to most of the BLM resurveys... 8 original corners was often what you recovered in a TOWNSHIP (if you were lucky). Talking with guys from the BLM who resurveyed many townships, there were a number of townships where no original stones were recovered in the entire township, (but was still done as a dependant resurvey). One of the reasons that nearly all surveyors in this region were so happy to have the BLM conducting resurveys.
I'm heading to one in a few weeks,,,,it has an x at all four section corners, so it looks promising, had a section 4 this fall that had 12 originals monuments. 11 are still there which includes two brass caps set by a surveyor in the 90's so I'm counting them. But one was taken out by a ranch road. Not in the basin, but not all that far from it.
I now routinely recover 8 or more corners on a section - but they are BLM brass caps rather than stones... not nearly as satisfying or challenging, but certainly appreciated in the course of a survey that the client can now afford to have completed. B-) But I DO miss the thrill of the hunt and the satisfaction in recovering a stone that may not have been surveyed since the day it was set...
A lot of sections east of the Cimarron Meridian (in the absence of county roads), in the canyon country, are still monumented with their originals. One thing I have noticed (and it varies) is a lot of quarter corners were not set that well. Prominent (12"x15"x4" or there abouts) stones at the section corners, with quarter corners being reported as quarts of charcoal, posts or just pits and mounds. I guess to one or two of those guys the 1/4 corners were not that important. In my memory, five is probably the most I have recovered in one section up there. I haven't been up there in a couple of years...but those rocks aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
One of the reasons I moved west was the condition of the PLSS. I have certainly found original stones at all the corners I searched, but rarely need all 8 corners. Most often we need 5.
There are townships in the mountains that have high rates of survival, especially if the Foresters cared enough to preserve them. In the valley and urban areas the rate of survival is almost nil. Coastal areas are tough due to heavy logging activity and rot but our predecessor lumber company in Mendocno County had an active Survey Department and they preserved a lot of corners or reestablished missing corners but the survival rate is closer to 50% mostly because they cared. We have their field notes which look like GLO Notes except they are in feet. I suspect they aren't the actual field notes, they are more like a narrative map prepared in the office. But their BTs can be found along with LS numbers scribed in stumps (from the 1930s). I think the field notes were drafted in the office sort of like we don't draw the Plat in the field as we go.
I've probably searched for a couple thousand post, pits and mounds and never found one. Only a small portion of these are off roadways that were established a few decades after the original surveys. Because there are no original monuments best evidence of the first established line is a big deal.
Dave Vliem, post: 355813, member: 7055 wrote: I now routinely recover 8 or more corners on a section - but they are BLM brass caps rather than stones... not nearly as satisfying or challenging, but certainly appreciated in the course of a survey that the client can now afford to have completed. B-) But I DO miss the thrill of the hunt and the satisfaction in recovering a stone that may not have been surveyed since the day it was set...
Campbell county is nice for the fact of all the resurveys. I worked over there a decade ago for Stetson. Your name sounds familiar but I can't place it.
linebender, post: 355848, member: 449 wrote: I've probably searched for a couple thousand post, pits and mounds and never found one. Only a small portion of these are off roadways that were established a few decades after the original surveys. Because there are no original monuments best evidence of the first established line is a big deal.
I've never actually found (seen) a recognizable pit or mound either. With the thousands that were reportedly dug and built; I guess that could be a testament to their longevity.
Somewhere in a magazine article, book or possibly even a BLM publication, I have seen photos of a recently recovered p&m corner. It was flat dry lake bed ground, in NM or AZ, and the sun had to be almost dusk horizontal for the features to be visible. Too much rain here, even in Western Oklahoma, for such a feature to survive very long.
Found a couple pits in central SD dug 1880s. One we even found color of the burnt stake in the middle of them.
MightyMoe, post: 355791, member: 700 wrote: A typical PLSS Section consists of 8 corners, or 8 originally monumented corners.
It's rare to find one with all 8 still in place, I did find a couple of these in the last township I ran, but usually there is at least one corner missing in a section, taken out by fences, farming, road building, something.
We were discussing it in the office trying to remember some and mostly can't think of any.
I had one a couple of years ago on an old family ranch (2012), but that's the last one till the township this year.
We just wondered how often others come across one.
I found all 8 original stones on a section north of Park City, Utah in about 2000. Quite a developed mountain subdivision area. When the survey was filed the acting county surveyor put his own note on there that it probably wasn't correct, he didn't believe it or have faith in it. He could have went and looked but I don't think he did. I suspect he had not found some of the same corners in the past.
LRDay, post: 355859, member: 571 wrote: I found all 8 original stones on a section north of Park City, Utah in about 2000. Quite a developed mountain subdivision area. When the survey was filed the acting county surveyor put his own note on there that it probably wasn't correct, he didn't believe it or have faith in it. He could have went and looked but I don't think he did. I suspect he had not found some of the same corners in the past.
That's an odd thing to do,,,,,,,,:pissed:
paden cash, post: 355853, member: 20 wrote: I've never actually found (seen) a recognizable pit or mound either. With the thousands that were reportedly dug and built; I guess that could be a testament to their longevity.
Somewhere in a magazine article, book or possibly even a BLM publication, I have seen photos of a recently recovered p&m corner. It was flat dry lake bed ground, in NM or AZ, and the sun had to be almost dusk horizontal for the features to be visible. Too much rain here, even in Western Oklahoma, for such a feature to survive very long.
There are quite a number of pits still out there, I went to one corner last week in an area where the corner records show a number of found monuments with pits, one section corner has all four still there according to the corner record.
The monument I was looking for didn't have any left, but the stone was still firmly set and marked, I was disappointed 🙁
But mounds are really rare, I've only seen a couple of those.
MightyMoe, post: 355947, member: 700 wrote: There are quite a number of pits still out there, I went to one corner last week in an area where the corner records show a number of found monuments with pits, one section corner has all four still there according to the corner record.
The monument I was looking for didn't have any left, but the stone was still firmly set and marked, I was disappointed 🙁
But mounds are really rare, I've only seen a couple of those.
We have found the remnants of pits in the White River NF that were filled in by bushes so that there were small brush patches in the cardinal directions from the monument. Of course, with all of the other bushes it was little help finding the monuments as we only recognized the pits after the discovery.
It never fails that when I need to break down a section, I am always missing a key corner. In the area where I do most of my work, the pits and mounds and even stones have either been replaced by iron pipes or have been "farmed over" and no traces are left.
On a current survey, I've found 6 of the 8 corners and they all match reasonably well with the minimal record maps and the GLO notes. However, the W/4 and SW corner are long gone. I've got a W/4 in the section to the south, but nothing on the line to the west. I'm in Sec 15, so a double proportion would be a good start to at least come up with a reasonably close location to where the corner used to be. I'm looking at existing fence lines right now to see how they fit the little bit of record data I have.
All because of a concrete irrigation line that was put into the ground decades ago that likely took out the existing monumentation.