Frank
> You are so right about that. One in particular, a hydroplaning accident, and a small girl about 12 makes me sick everytime I think about it. You'd better believe that the measurements I did on that one were as accurate as I could possibly make them. I guess police and others get a lot more hardened to this kind of stuff, or at least they can control their thinking better at these types of scenes.
Personally, I would do an accident survey on something like that in a heartbeat and bring every iota of my knowledge and ability of determining correct x,y,z location and orientation of every bit of evidence at the scene so as to be sure what happened. I firmly believe in nailing whoever was negligent or acted criminally in such circumstances.
To date the only ones I have worked on were industrial/construction accidents and that was over 20 years ago.
Though about 32 years ago I helped work a couple of fatal/near fatal accidents as a rookie LEO.
SJ
That's a very good point, Stephen, and one reason I'm glad that we're not on call to come out at 2 A.M. to do an accident survey.
From my discussions with our police and reading the materials that I posted above, my impression is that the police do a basic location survey to show:
What were the positions of the vehicle(s) after the accident?
What were the locations of the victim(s), if any?
What were the locations of any skidmarks, debris, etc.?
What was the general layout of the roadway and striping, poles, signs, etc.?
If they are doing advanced topographic surveys to try to show superelevation, lane profiles, etc., I personally think they should hire a professional surveyor ASAP after the accident. I don't really think anybody would argue that the surveyor wouldn't provide a more accurate map than the police; that's just my take on it.
One of the problems now nowadays with vehicle accidents is expediency.
When there is a major wreck on the Interstate here that includes fatalities, the road is closed down and detour is set -up.
It is quite common to shut down the Intestate for a few hours. The police 'survey' teams are more readily available to mobilize to the scene.
Maybe they should have an LS on staff or on call to supervise., it couldn't hurt.
This Thread Has Some People.......
....sounding as if the believe no one should even TOUCH a total station instrument if they aren't an LS.
It's a tool......it can be used by anyone trained to use it.
So is AutoCAD....it's doesn't come with a disclaimer "Should only be used by licensed land surveyors".
Do you think they just haul two officers off the beat and hand them a TS and tell them, "Start mapping boys"?
Land Surveyors aren't licensed because they are expert in measurement. Land Surveyors are licensed because they identify and determine boundary lines.
Anybody can use a total station or a gps instrument.
Police Officers can do accident sites because they are accepted in a Court of Law.
Angelo
> Do you think they just haul two officers off the beat and hand them a TS and tell them, "Start mapping boys"?
I know for a fact that they do not. Over 30 years ago I spent some time as a Police Officer in a Texas City. One of my best friends was a Sr. Patrolman/Field Training Officer/Accident Investigator. They went through extensive training in "reading" the accident scene, what skid marks meant on the various surfaces under various conditions, etc.. They were at that time not trained in using surveying instruments, they were using measuring wheels and 100' tapes. I personally did many accidents while on patrol. In fact, unless serious injuries were involved, I was the "next in line" after the designated "Accident Investigator" to do traffic accidents. It seems the various Sergeants really liked my reports for completeness, accuracy and legibility.
To finish, I have kept up with that particular department over the years and know that when they obtained total stations for accident investigations, they also had some intensive training classes in the use, calibration, and care of the total station, the data collector and the prism and prism pole.
They have to maintain equipment and check its calibration on a regular basis for any data gathered by that equipment to be unimpeachable in court.
SJ
> Land Surveyors aren't licensed because they are expert in measurement. Land Surveyors are licensed because they identify and determine boundary lines.
This statement is not true in Oregon. There are various functions other than boundary surveying included in the definition of "surveying" in Oregon. In Washington topographic surveying is included in the definition of surveying. If the public has "skin in the game", then it is appropriate to have a qualified professional do the work. "Qualified" isn't always synonomous with "licensed", but "licensed" goes a long way to prove "qualified" in a court of law.
I am pleased to hear that accident scene surveyors are getting training.
S J
My point exactly.
We capture the full surveying gamut in MI:
(f) “Practice of professional surveying” means providing professional services such as consultation,
investigation, testimony, evaluation, planning, mapping, assembling, and interpreting reliable scientific measurements and information relative to the location, size, shape, or physical features of the earth, improvements on the earth, the space above the earth, or any part of the earth, and the utilization and
development of these facts and interpretations into an orderly survey map, plan, report, description, or project.
The practice of professional surveying includes all of the following:
(i) Land surveying that is the surveying of an area for its correct determination or description for its
conveyance, or for the establishment or reestablishment of a land boundary and the designing or design coordination of the plotting of land and the subdivision of land.
(ii) Geodetic surveying that includes surveying for determination of the size and shape of the earth both horizontally and vertically and the precise positioning of points on the earth utilizing angular and linear measurements through spatially oriented spherical geometry.
(iii) Utilizing and managing land information systems through establishment of datums and local coordinate systems and points of reference.
(iv) Engineering and architectural surveying for design and construction layout of infrastructure.
(v) Cartographic surveying for making maps, including topographic and hydrographic mapping.
> We capture the full surveying gamut in MI:
Some surveyors seem to be willing to abandon everything but boundary surveying to anybody with equipment. If you think anybody who can push the buttons can do it then you may not know what it is.
Agreed. Even with our generous occupational code (MI), many are still apathetic about the infringement on our profession from all sides - GIS, machine grading, etc - I don't know what the answer should be...
I'll see your gamut
> We capture the full surveying gamut in MI:
and raise you:
(vi) in conjunction with the site development or subdivision of land, the preparation and design of plans for the following projects, provided that such preparation and design are in accordance with design manuals, details, and standards accepted by the State or local authority:
1. road and street grades;
2. sediment and erosion control measures;
3. nonpressurized closed storm drainage and stormwater management systems; and
4. open conduit storm drainage and stormwater management systems.
I'll see your conjuction
> (vi) in conjunction with the site development...
and raise a 'certification'
Arkansas Code
17-48-101. Definitions.
As used in this chapter:
(5) “Surveying measurement certification” means providing the professional service of certification or sealing of maps, documents, digital files, or other data to verify that the maps, documents, digital files, or other data are authoritative professional determinations based on accepted methods and principles of surveying measurement or analysis representing or listing the following types of surveying measurements:
(A) The configuration or contour of the earth's surface or the position of fixed objects on the earth's surface;
(B) The position or elevation of any survey boundary or control monument or reference point; and
(C) The alignment or elevation of any fixed works embraced within the practice of professional engineering.
DDSM
I'll see your conjuction
anyone else got the urge to play some poker?
😀 :beer:
Wow.?ÿ Thought I had dropped into a time warp.?ÿ Comments from more than 11 years ago.?ÿ A lot of names I remember but have not seen recently.?ÿ Good discussion, though.
Sadly, I had to delete the reviving post due to its political implications. Almost 12 years later and I still don't understand why that's a difficult concept to grasp.
@wendell?ÿ
Dang.?ÿ Guess I didn't pick up on the improper part of his message.
