Pins -Haven’t been to Hawaii in a couple years, - but last time I went I noticed several ads for “pin finders” in newspaper classifieds.
These are non-licensed people that find property corners for a fee.
I was wondering how many states allow this type of work.
In Alaska you can do anything just short of signing a plat without a license and with zero liability so I am wondering if other places are creating a non-licensed surveying profession like Alaska and Hawaii.
I can find a needle in a haystack... but I am a professional.
I'm thinking it's probably not specifically addressed in most statutes, and it's a debatable topic as to whether it's legal or not. I can certainly see an argument for both sides. I mean....what's wrong with searching for metal in the ground and exposing it? I would tell "clients" that I'm not a surveyor and cannot tell you if the monument represents their corner or not. Heck, some surveyors I know even say that a surveyor can't legally determine a property corner. Only the owner or the courts can....
> Pins -Haven’t been to Hawaii in a couple years, - but last time I went I noticed several ads for “pin finders” in newspaper classifieds.
> These are non-licensed people that find property corners for a fee.
>
But yet they can hire a professional to do an ALTA Survey, but not set the pins.
-Go figure
I haven't noticed that Alaska has much of a problem with unlicensed surveyors; their are a few construction staking companies that don't have a license, but it isn't required for what they do.
Mark,
As far as I can tell Alaska hasn’t been able to come up with a good definition as to what requires a license to practice surveying, if you have good definition I would love to see it.
I have seen the licensing board's definition and they don't seem to agree with what is actually happening in the field.
Don’t know about Anchorage or Fairbanks but have run into unlicensed surveyors practicing (actually have business) in a few communities around the state - most goes into grey area of definition and if anything crosses line they have license holder that is effectively just a signer.
Also most of public construction I have seen done in rural areas is handled by non-licensed surveyors even down to resetting corners, topography for quantities, etc. Board definition would say this type of work is surveying but no one enforces.
Have also seen this with engineering in communities.
Just curios if this is norm in other states also.
I've seen the ads on Craiglist in Hawaii and thought the same thing, is it legal? How far can they push the limits. What's their liability if they get it wrong? While I haven't seen similar offers of service here in Alaska on Craigslist, I am aware of individuals that are practicing surveying without a license, mostly in construction or volume related work that doesn't directly involve creating boundaries as in platting a subdivision where a stamp would be involved. Sometimes these individuals will subcontract to a licensed surveyor to do their field work, but that raises questions for me as well. Are they really a subcontractor and if they are, are they under the direct supervision of the license holder? It's a murky world. The BOR in each state charged with overseeing professional services seems to be reactive to public complaints, so until someone incurs real damages from an unlicensed individual and the injured party has no recourse to be made whole, the BOR is unlikely to take any action to reign in this type of activity. Just my take BB.
> .....The BOR in each state charged with overseeing professional services seems to be reactive to public complaints, so until someone incurs real damages from an unlicensed individual and the injured party has no recourse to be made whole, the BOR is unlikely to take any action to reign in this type of activity...
In Oklahoma our Board of Licensure is actually powerless over non-licensed individuals. Their jurisdiction is merely licensed professionals. That being said, they can (and have) fire off the nasty "eat-poo" letter that says quit it or we'll tell the AG. As far as I know, the AG has never prosecuted a non-licensed individual performing quasi-surveying for the public.
I personally think that we surveyors need to actively pursue a course of action involving unnamed men in hoods and masks that pound the gut-drippings out of anyone poaching on the public we are charged to serve.
It would be simple, inexpensive and very, very effective. And it could happen....
> Mark,
> As far as I can tell Alaska hasn’t been able to come up with a good definition as to what requires a license to practice surveying, if you have good definition I would love to see it.
> I have seen the licensing board's definition and they don't seem to agree with what is actually happening in the field.
> Don’t know about Anchorage or Fairbanks but have run into unlicensed surveyors practicing (actually have business) in a few communities around the state - most goes into grey area of definition and if anything crosses line they have license holder that is effectively just a signer.
> Also most of public construction I have seen done in rural areas is handled by non-licensed surveyors even down to resetting corners, topography for quantities, etc. Board definition would say this type of work is surveying but no one enforces.
> Have also seen this with engineering in communities.
> Just curios if this is norm in other states also.
Nope.
In the lower 48 major construction not staked directly by the contractor or owner(??) (read machine guidance), any control, doing topo (photogrammetric or terrestrial) or quantities, staking buildings or infrastructure, resetting corners:pinch: , and, most importantly *anything* to do with the site boundary, or God forbid, a subdivision requires an LS on board.
The trigger seems to be when an outfit hangs a shingle advertising such services. Yes, many firms have dodged the statutes by hiring a rummy LS who shows up each month and stamps dozens of documents without any review (5 minutes of his time and he gets paid $1,000). Been there as an non-licensed employee which the LS signs to. I lived with it because he always looked me in the eye and asked if what he's signing meets State standards; I truthfully answered yes to the best of my knowledge. Was working on my LS during the time and when finally licensed told my boss to sh*tcan that guy, boost my pay by $1,000 a month, and I'll sign my own stuff any day of the week; let's go legit. He bought in.
The gray market guys who don't advertise are hard to catch, but once the shingle goes up the State Board is willing to pursue if presented with ironclad evidence of *doing* the services, no need for a lawsuit for damages. Actually, most of the jackleg operations get popped by an egregious error which bankrupts them (no liability insurance), although it may take years. The point is unless somebody rats them to the board or an owner sues for damages they'll fumble along and do the public a disservice. That's what the licensure statutes are all about.
So sorry to hear Alaska is so jacklegged you even have to ask the question. I did boundary work up there for a season and our products met State standards with close supervision by an LS. His company ultimately pulled out of private surveying and prospered exclusively on State and Federal contracts. Now I know why he did that.
> In Oklahoma our Board of Licensure is actually powerless over non-licensed individuals. Their jurisdiction is merely licensed professionals. That being said, they can (and have) fire off the nasty "eat-poo" letter that says quit it or we'll tell the AG. As far as I know, the AG has never prosecuted a non-licensed individual performing quasi-surveying for the public.
In the States I practice in the Board will actively pursue non-licensed practitioners violating State statutes (when tipped off by local LSs) and when when forced to be forwarded to the AG it's promptly handled (6 months+-), the perp is usually hit with a hefty fine and a cease and desist order, sometimes for life. Usually the matter is resolved by the Board less punitively if the perp is acquiescent; but if he's an a**hole, they push it up to the AG, feathers will fly.
Hawaii is practically it's own country anyway....
> Pins -Haven’t been to Hawaii in a couple years, - but last time I went I noticed several ads for “pin finders” in newspaper classifieds.
> These are non-licensed people that find property corners for a fee.
>
> I was wondering how many states allow this type of work.
>
> In Alaska you can do anything just short of signing a plat without a license and with zero liability so I am wondering if other places are creating a non-licensed surveying profession like Alaska and Hawaii.
I imagine that the concern of the board is directly proportional to the proximity to a "major" center of population (meaning more than 50 people, and on the road system).
When my grandpa first showed up in AK in the 50's, he knew stuff about animals, so he did veterinary work. No one else around to help in the small town. Same thing happens in communities where there is no close doctor.
Now, it is not 1950, but for many communities in AK, it isn't that far off.
If they have a trusted individual in the community that can effectively delineate boundaries, and they don't have to pay a guy to fly in with all his gear...I am guessing no one cares what someone in Juneau has to say.
I just located 23 pins marking the corners on a soccer field. Does that count?
In CA, they don't allow that kind of work, but the Board is not very zealous about going after such people.
Some areas of the state have several of these people, but they usually don't advertise but work by word of mouth. Some landowner gets estimates from some surveyors that range from $2500 up to $6000 to survey his boundary. While griping to a friend or neighbor about those fees (his r.e. agent told him a survey should cost no more than $500), his friend says "Hey, I know a guy who will find your corners for $150."
Said guy is a hillbilly with a metal detector he stole from the company he chained for back in '98. Kind of like a Stellar's Jay that waits until you go to the cooler to get a fresh drink, then swoops in and steals the as yet untouched filet mignon off your plate, and drops it in the dirt after getting away with one little bite of edge gristle.
> Hawaii is practically it's own country anyway....
😀 😀 :good:
