I recently got a call from a neighbor of a client I did a boundary survey for. He and I spoke during the survey and got my card. He was calling me out on a line point that is on a steep slope. The lots in this plat are along a bluff. I staked some line stakes along the portion of where the house is up top and I put a few flags down the slope.
At any rate, he cleared some trees on what he thought was his line, but my client is now sicking attorney's on the man that called me. He wants me to verify that line was correct because as I said, he is claiming he used the line flags. I told him that the points were on line, but I couldn't be sure if anyone has possibly moved the flags (as it's been 6 months).
My question is of ethics. Should I call my client to notify her? I mentioned that I should notify my client and he said that doesn't need to occur as he would pay for my time. I feel an obligation to my client since I haven't heard anything from her and now there may be litigation forthcoming. Should I do this check pro bono as a courtesy to my client instead? Instead of creating a contract with the neigbor? I feel if things get bad l will be between a rock and a hard place. Any one face something similar and what did you learn?
ken, post: 402937, member: 1548 wrote: he said that doesn't need to occur as he would pay for my time.
This has a bad feel.
Is there any way to be SURE of what you marked? I have done clandestine activities before, such as pics, or a few buried nails, so that i could tell any jury "I am 100% sure I marked the line here... On mar 28th, but someone has moved my flags, on the 13th of this month".
I'm suspicious of quasi client 2.
Yeah I blazed the tree and put flagging on it. Stored the shot. I reviewed the drawing and data. Appears to be all OK. My gut tells me to not charge anything to the neighbor, but on the caveat that I tell my client of the guys call and then check my flagging and blaze.
You're his best person to hire, since you've already surveyed that line. Your opinion should be unbiased. I don't know the most diplomatic or ethical way to deal with the old client, though. It seems like giving him heads up would be wise.
Tom Adams, post: 402954, member: 7285 wrote: You're his best person to hire, since you've already surveyed that line. Your opinion should be unbiased. I don't know the most diplomatic or ethical way to deal with the old client, though. It seems like giving him heads up would be wise.
Yeah I agree. Just wasn't sure if I should make him a paying client is all. If a client had called me, I would go out and check my work before going any further. Also, even if my work was good but the flag is moved--does that create a quagmire?
After talking to client 1, I'd probably work for client 2.
I would do nothing. Period. Let the chips fall. I would bet that if that moves forward at all your client will be in touch. It is very likely that someone moved something after you left.
Lot of times these bluff type lots have views or sun obstructed by neighbor's trees and it's not unheard of for the offending trees to suddenly come down and if the neighbor moved the flags to make it appear they were on his property and cuts them down, how convenient to have a patsy surveyor on hand to blame. Agree with HC.
You probably didn't know of any foreseable problems going in, but if I ever suspect problems I plant unseen, unflagged nails at the base of my lathes.
We, unfortunately, seem to be born with a need to help people. Some people don't deserve our help. The problem is figuring out exactly which ones do and which ones don't. BTW, I hate working for the village bully but sometimes that's how it turns out.
ken, post: 402937, member: 1548 wrote: I recently got a call from a neighbor of a client I did a boundary survey for. He and I spoke during the survey and got my card. He was calling me out on a line point that is on a steep slope. The lots in this plat are along a bluff. I staked some line stakes along the portion of where the house is up top and I put a few flags down the slope.
At any rate, he cleared some trees on what he thought was his line, but my client is now sicking attorney's on the man that called me. He wants me to verify that line was correct because as I said, he is claiming he used the line flags. I told him that the points were on line, but I couldn't be sure if anyone has possibly moved the flags (as it's been 6 months).
My question is of ethics. Should I call my client to notify her? I mentioned that I should notify my client and he said that doesn't need to occur as he would pay for my time. I feel an obligation to my client since I haven't heard anything from her and now there may be litigation forthcoming. Should I do this check pro bono as a courtesy to my client instead? Instead of creating a contract with the neigbor? I feel if things get bad l will be between a rock and a hard place. Any one face something similar and what did you learn?
Ken if you decide to accept his request and perform services for the neighbor...and I mean a big IF...and it was in California, you would be required by law to notify both parties in writing due to possible conflict of interest.
There's nothing real special about California law in this respect, I would be surprised if other states didn't have something similar, especially Washington. It's mainly common sense.
Why would it be a conflict of interest? The surveyor doesn't advocate for (either) client. He just gives his opinion on where the line is. I see nothing about the situation that would tend to bias his opinion in favor of either party.
Oh, but a judge sees it.
Strongly agree with written notification to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest if you decide to accept any money from neighbor.
I wouldn't let the neighbor tell me what's necessary. It's usually more necessary for him than you.
You would be working for two different parties on the same issue. BIG no-no in NC without notification.
If this ends up going to court, the neighbor's attorney will probably have him get a new survey done anyway. He can recover that cost if need be.
Keep in mind that your primary obligation is to the public, not your client.
I would ask an attorney about your liability in a non-client relying on your work. Did he even have a copy of your map? Did neighbor and your client meet and point out the line? (estoppel)
If it were me:
1) I would check my work. While you're there, locate the tree stumps or the cleared area and stakes if you can. This is so you can sleep at night. I wouldn't necessarily report results to first client if everything looks good, just that you didn't find anything odd. If he needs the cleared area mapped, you have that data and you can bill for it.
2) If you find an error, meet with first client.
3) I would advise neighbor to get his own survey. If his survey agrees with yours, there should be no survey issue.
4) If his survey comes up different, he will have his own "unbiased" survey to go forward with and you will have another professional eye on it at least.
As mentioned before, going forward, set marks or make references you can recover. See my post of July 14 2016.
Lean into the issue.
Holy Cow, post: 403024, member: 50 wrote: Oh, but a judge sees it.
The fact that the judge is an idiot is no excuse.
I believe notification of the prior client would be professional and prudent as far as the ethics is concerned.
Conflict of interest? Pretty much a grey area in this scenario since you are not directly and unfairly profiting from the situation based on some insider influence.
After all, a court appointed surveyor would be providing the same function.
I would chat and notify the original client about the recent call.
What's her side of the misunderstanding that is alarming the caller.Then sleep on it.
Remember that some of these line disagreements between neighbors are about something else entirely such as personality conflicts and personal matters that become manifested in the boundaries.
Finally, I would like to commend you on your ethical concerns as a professional surveyor.
The ethics situation that you have encountered is interesting.
If a surveyor suspects that his markers have been moved or tampered, does he/she have a professional obligation to
seek answers or just ignore the situation that has been brought to their attention. I would lean to the former based on the "duties to the public" dictum.
JB, post: 403036, member: 346 wrote: I would ask an attorney about your liability in a non-client relying on your work. Did he even have a copy of your map?
I think that's an interesting concept.
Did you leave behind any stray flagging? Trav. Points? Control points?
I know a surveyor who has it on his plats, "pink flagging is control only, and orange is property lines".
I can see that hanging him, if if if
ken, post: 402937, member: 1548 wrote: My question is of ethics. Should I call my client to notify her? I mentioned that I should notify my client and he said that doesn't need to occur as he would pay for my time. I feel an obligation to my client since I haven't heard anything from her and now there may be litigation forthcoming.
What you are proposing to do is, in essence, is act as an arbitrator in a boundary dispute. That's a totally legitimate thing for a surveyor to do. You should notify your first client, first in person or on the phone as a courtesy, then following up in writing as documentation. If that first client objects it really doesn't matter.
Charge the second client (neighbor) for your time in accordance with your rate sheet. If you find that you made an error you can discount your charges to either or both in the manner that your conscience dictates.
I would contact your original client and tell her that the neighbor called and as lawyers are now involved that you think it would be a good idea for you to verify the issues. I would do this initially at no fee not so much to be the nice guy as to understand possible future liability. You may be able to understand the dispute better today with fresh evidence than if it goes to court and the evidence is not as clear. I am sure your client and the neighbor have a story and most likely a history to go along with it. Many times a boundary dispute is just a symptom of an ongoing conflict. The truth may have little to do with what they say. If you go and locate the clearing, you could offer to provide an exhibit to the original client for additional $$$ if it shows the neighbor cleared over the line. I have learn the hard way that you don't have to be wrong to be liable. I have not ever regretted taking a proactive approach to litigation. I can't say the same about the opposite approach. The neighbor should hire another surveyor as your objectivity could be called into question.
Good thread and good posts. After reading, I agree that I would want to come out and verify my work since things are heating up. If you have confidence in the line you staked, you might even put something more permanent/durable marking that line.(?) The trouble with lathes and flags are that they are temporary in nature. The reason we set something reasonably durable and identifiable for corners is to "monument" what we've done for a longer-term. It's for your own protection as well as honoring the boundary between neighbors.
The neighbor might want to get his own survey if he doesn't agree with where you marked the line, but the fact that he is calling you is that he doesn't suspect that you staked the line wrong but he suspects the flags have been moved. So it's a little early to worry about a dispute until you go out there. (as for money, I don't think it's unethical for you to charge for your time, and doing it free might be good for business/public relations I think that is your own personal decision.)
Just some more thoughts.
