I am a long time member since the Mark Deal days and usually post under my name but as I will be discussing my son and I know several on this board I want to do it anonymously. I am going to give background and it may take a while but I want to ask your opinion and you need to have as much info as possible.
My son has worked for me on and off since he was 13 or so. He has always been a good worker but one of those who does what he is told and very little else in the way of self improvement. He has good skills with the gun, fair with the data collector, fair with CAD. He is not good with IT, networks, etc. He is just now beginning to take an interest in getting ahead. I have always thought of him as Peter Pan. He has not wanted to grow up and be an adult but as he is not married and doesn't have kids, I didn't give him a hard time about it. We started working construction in the state where he lives and he has begun to pay attention, work hard, and really try. He always had bad timing and now that I am old and in another state I'm wondering how can he get the training he needs to make a decent living. He is eligible in my state to take the test but not in the one he wants to live in so he will never be a RLS there. He is not the academic nor the burn-the-midnight-oil for years type so I don't see night school and a degree as an option. I feel like this time in his life is critical. He is looking to me for direction and I'm not sure what to tell him specifically. Time spent on additional training besides work days will be limited so I want to steer him in the right direction. I don't think he will be a 3D Revit BIM guy. He is beginning to transition from the field to office. He calculates stakeout points from CAD files provided by the client, helps with client interaction, billing etc. Does some stakeout and stuff in the field, etc. I think he knows more than he realizes but he has so far to go that it worries me a little.
I want to give him some good advice. I need to help him prepare for the next 5 years or in case I drop dead of a heart attack or am no longer involved in the day to day running of the company. What is available that is relevant? Things are changing so much that I'm wondering where or how does a young man get training that is immediately applicable and relevant for today and several years from now? If this were your son, what would you tell him? I know some of guys will have great advice and I can't wait to hear it.
Thanks
Taking and passing the Test is important in every State. Where he is right now, may not be where he remains forever. From your comments it appears he lacks required education. Passing one or both tests may be the final incentive he needs to get that education. Even failing the test may be a positive incentive for him.
It is his car, you cannot steer it or press on the accelerator.
The most you should offer him is to pay for the test and/or a test review course.
When I elected to go to NJIT for a survey education, about 1/3 of the students were "not the academic nor the burn-the-midnight-oil for years type", but they still had something that the academic students did not, experience and the insight that goes with it. Not much education is required to pass the tests if the education you have or get you can apply to the real world.
Paul in PA
Not every son will pass thru the same gate with the same amount of enthusiasm or desire.
It is good that he has shown the desire to improve his talents and it is never too late to go back to school or study and learn themselves.
I have two new candidates presenting different directions in their wanting to survey. One knows nothing and has no formal education background and the other is leaving the Air Force in a leadership role with over two years college and wishes to take some surveying courses on the GI Bill in the direction to be licensed.
I do know that if he wants to stay in construction, he will have to spend the proper amount of time outside that field to have an education to be a Land Surveyor.
Other Old Guy: Perhaps there will be some life event that will inspire him, or direct him. Feel fortunate that he has the skills he has now, that will always be a fall back or a foundation for his future.
Getting a license does not guarantee success or stability, and in some circumstances can actually hinder.
Lots of random thoughts swimming in my head, about when I had real passion, and about when I just did what I did because it was there... The numerous life events, the help from friends and family, the hungry days.
My advice? Tell him to Follow the passion, the stuff he really likes. There are lots of ways to put bread on the table, but being happy at your work is Rare and Awesome.
so, bottom line, don't sweat it.
This may seem strange to you but it makes a lot of sense. Find a way to get him working for a different firm for a couple of years, at least. While the expectations will be similar for his work function, his ability to learn from and work with others will be tested to the max. If he sinks, he sinks. But, if he can swim, he'll figure out for himself what aspects he can handle and which need improvement.
Holy Cow, post: 330071, member: 50 wrote: This may seem strange to you but it makes a lot of sense. Find a way to get him working for a different firm for a couple of years, at least. While the expectations will be similar for his work function, his ability to learn from and work with others will be tested to the max. If he sinks, he sinks. But, if he can swim, he'll figure out for himself what aspects he can handle and which need improvement.
He has worked for three or four other firms through the years. (details removed).
Paul in PA, post: 330051, member: 236 wrote: Taking and passing the Test is important in every State. Where he is right now, may not be where he remains forever. From your comments it appears he lacks required education. Passing one or both tests may be the final incentive he needs to get that education. Even failing the test may be a positive incentive for him.
It is his car, you cannot steer it or press on the accelerator.
The most you should offer him is to pay for the test and/or a test review course.
When I elected to go to NJIT for a survey education, about 1/3 of the students were "not the academic nor the burn-the-midnight-oil for years type", but they still had something that the academic students did not, experience and the insight that goes with it. Not much education is required to pass the tests if the education you have or get you can apply to the real world.
Paul in PA
I would love for him to take the test. (whoops- too much detail). I don't think he will study enough to pass the test. I do think he will do some extra study or training but I just don't think he sees enough value in being licensed in my state (not his) to climb that steep hill. I'm not going to waste my time nagging him again.
Old Surveyor, post: 330074, member: 10297 wrote: I would love for him to take the test. (whoops- too much detail). I don't think he will study enough to pass the test. I do think he will do some extra study or training but I just don't think he sees enough value in being licensed in my state (not his) to climb that steep hill. I'm not going to waste my time nagging him again.
You've probably researched this already, but just in case, don't forget that his state might qualify him to sit for their exam if he gets licensed in your state.
Old Surveyor, post: 330050, member: 10297 wrote: I need to help him prepare for the next 5 years or in case I drop dead of a heart attack or am no longer involved in the day to day running of the company...
I hesitate to get into this, but here goes...
My father was a surveyor. I learned all my basics at exactly 50 and 100 foot increments behind him. And although he was a good mentor, I'm not so sure I was the best student. I actually despised surveying as a youngster. Pops would drag me out on the weekends to help and it ate up all my play time.
I never appreciated the lessons he taught me until I had to apply them for myself.
I kicked around and framed houses and drove a truck and worked on a concrete crew. I didn't settle into surveying full time until I had a pregnant wife and $60 a month trailer rent. It was only then I realized I had been preened for a career. But I could have just as easily done something else.
I'm going to look at your question from your son's point of view. "The big question is what does he want to do?" All the prep and schooling in the world won't stick unless he wants to go along with it. As a father, I can appreciate your desire to continue your guidance of your son. As a son, I'm here to tell you it ultimately is going to be his decision. I hope he doesn't walk away from your help, but prepare yourself if he seems to be heading in another direction.
If he does, I don't believe that means he doesn't want your help. I'm more inclined to believe he just wants to rely on his own intestinal fortitude to succeed as an adult. And isn't that really what we want for our children all along; to grow and be able to care for themselves?
I bet you live longer than five years and I bet in six years you guys will still have a good strong bond, no matter which direction he goes. B-)
I am a 40 something second generation surveyor that actually has some guys like this that work for me. I have been fortunate to branch into photogrametry, laser scanning, and SUE. This has allowed me to help these guys find a niche in surveys that they love and enjoy. Your sons basis on real surveying will help him tremendously in any of these niche services. I know for my career, just having my dad there to listen has been priceless.
Some kids listen when they are young, some listen when they get older and some figure out they should have listened at some point in their lives. All you can do is just keep talking and hoping.
Old Surveyor, post: 330074, member: 10297 wrote: I would love for him to take the test. (whoops- too much detail). I don't think he will study enough to pass the test. I do think he will do some extra study or training but I just don't think he sees enough value in being licensed in my state (not his) to climb that steep hill. I'm not going to waste my time nagging him again.
Do not nag him, make the offer to cover exam/review costs and leave it at that.
Do you take continuing ed courses? If so take him along as a companion, no pressure for him to do anything else.
I know many surveyors who take family or staff along, just to get them exposed to the possibility.
My wife has enjoyed a few conventions over the years.
Paul in PA
It sounds as though you own a surveying firm and hope he can continue your legacy after you are gone. If so, then............
With or without a license, does he have the skills to do everything you know must be done? Is he willing to obtain those skills? If yes, why has he chosen to not do so after decades of opportunity? If no, start preparing someone else who WILL be able to run what was your business after you leave it, one way or another.
You are faced with an extremely common predicament experienced by small business owners. They have built, saved and built some more to accumulate something to be proud of. Eventually, they want to slow down or know their days are limited for one reason or another. Their children are who they have worked the hardest to benefit for decades. The challenge is how to transfer that which has been accumulated to the next generation. One alternative, a very unpopular one to many, is to take whatever has been accumulated and convert it into cold, hard cash which can be distributed very simply. An alternative is to bring one or more into the family business. The problem with that is that the apple frequently falls far from the tree and then rolls down hill to be even more remote.
The nearby county seat town no longer has a lumberyard. Great-great grandpa Marion started the firm in the 1880's. Great-grandpa Fred took it over. Then it jumped over his daughter to her young son who ran it for the next 50 years. Then it was my buddy's turn as the only male in the next generation and whose sisters had never been allowed to be involved. He could handle all of the day to day operation just fine. But his father had such a tight grip on the final decisions of every aspect of upper level business that the son was not prepared for that role. The company did not change with the times and held steadfast to what had appeared to work for over 100 years. But it did not work sufficiently well in the world that had changed around them. More and more of their customers were there out of loyalty to the attempt to keep such a business in their shrinking community. That alone does not provide enough income to keep a business going. My buddy was labeled a failure as the business closed, had a long going-out-of-business sale and then could find no buyers for even the buildings. They were razed and a bare one-quarter block came into being.
My buddy now lives two hours away from the old home town and is the happiest he has ever been in his life. The death of the family business has transitioned into a very nice position with Home Depot for him.
I know from experience, it is very difficult to advise your adult children without being counter-productive.
Tread lightly, say it once then let it go.
Parents aren't as clairvoyant about their children as they think they are.
The biggest shock you receive is when you hear, "we can't tell you anything, we can't even tell you if she is here" but that is only if things really go wrong and you are trying to step back into their lives. Fortunately a counselor talked her into signing a release of information.
Lots of great replies here. From my experience, the worst thing you can do is worry about him.
Don't.
At some point he will get tired of being poor and hungry and do what it takes not to be there. All Dad does is provide limited help and/or advise, but only when requested.
Holy Cow, post: 330102, member: 50 wrote: The nearby county seat town no longer has a lumberyard. Great-great grandpa Marion started the firm in the 1880's. Great-grandpa Fred took it over. Then it jumped over his daughter to her young son who ran it for the next 50 years. Then it was my buddy's turn as the only male in the next generation and whose sisters had never been allowed to be involved. He could handle all of the day to day operation just fine. But his father had such a tight grip on the final decisions of every aspect of upper level business that the son was not prepared for that role. The company did not change with the times and held steadfast to what had appeared to work for over 100 years. But it did not work sufficiently well in the world that had changed around them. More and more of their customers were there out of loyalty to the attempt to keep such a business in their shrinking community. That alone does not provide enough income to keep a business going. My buddy was labeled a failure as the business closed, had a long going-out-of-business sale and then could find no buyers for even the buildings. They were razed and a bare one-quarter block came into being.
When I was young I thought it would be great for Dad to have had a family business like some people I know. Life would be simple, just work into the family business. I know now that would be too limiting for me, like this is what you have to do which may not be what I'm best suited for. My Dad was a Civil Engineer. One of my brothers is a Civil Engineer. When I was in my twenties working for a small land development Civil Engineering firm as a technician my Dad kept advising me to go back to school and become an Engineer. I'm really glad I didn't, I can't think of anything more boring than sitting in an office playing Engineer. My job is way more fun than that and I make about what my brother makes.
Have you asked him what he wants to do?
No one ever said it would be easy; at least no one ever said it to me....
I try not to pamper my kids; it's not so much tough love; I just want them to be happy; no matter what they want to do. They just have to want to do something!
And to me, it's not about money; it's about being happy. Money helps; but if your not happy, it doesn't mean much.
I've met as lot of people that didn't like their jobs and did that for a long time; because of money. I feel sorry for them...
I fully agree with those who say he needs to follow his passion. I tell my kids to find something they enjoy doing and then find a way to get paid for it - and they will be successful. I also hear a lot about licensing, but if he is not the academic sort what about the CST program? Might give him the confidence he needs. Neither one of my boys finished high school, ended up getting their GED. Oldest one has traveled all over the world as a mechanic and just came back from Norway - he is one of Catepillar's top guys and has a really good head for problem solving, spatial skills, and mechanical aptitude. The other kid (lol, they are both in their 30's now) got his CDL and loves to drive. Found a local gig and is home with his family every night and making more than when OTR. Loves what he does and is a great dad. The younger is just now starting to learn how to take care of himself - how credit works, and negotiating with others - but at least he got there, albeit very late.
The younger one is similar to how you describe your son. Seemed to be a follower, not a lot of personal drive, failed at a lot of things, and frustrated me because he had such a good brain on his shoulders. But if I went tomorrow I'll at least know he will make it, something I wasn't so sure about 5 years ago. I think what made a difference for him was finding something he really liked and is very good at; it allows him to feel like he has value.
So ask him out of the various things he does (work and hobbies), what are the things he enjoys most. Then find out what aspects he likes about those things. A pattern will start to develop between all the different aspects that he does well and enjoys. I hate the CAD work because it is detail and repetitive and really don't do well at anything repetitive and detailed, but that is why others like it. I could never be a precision surveyor for more than one job! So help him identify where his enjoyment and skills are and that will help him to see his path more clearly. Just be prepared that the path may not be the one you would choose.
When most frustrated by my kids I was told by a friend that somehow they manage to make it. I wasn't so sure at the time but it turned out right. Sounds like you got a good kid (they're kids for us at any age) on your hands. Just be there to listen if nothing more. Long response but wanted to provide my story in case it helps.
Patrick Yglesias, post: 330104, member: 337 wrote: Lots of great replies here. From my experience, the worst thing you can do is worry about him.
Don't.
At some point he will get tired of being poor and hungry and do what it takes not to be there. All Dad does is provide limited help and/or advise, but only when requested.
Hammer hits nail on head. He is tired of being poor and broke. I was in his town when they repossessed his car. I helped him clean it out and watch it get pulled away but I didn't lift a finger to stop it. I put him out of the house at 19 for sassing his momma something he hasn't done since (almost 10 years ago now). He is tired of being poor and broke and is beginning to try so I'm wondering what can I do to help him. Years of night school taking classes that don't directly apply seems like a waste of time - on him anyway. Night CAD classes are a possibility but knowing him if he can't use it immediately, he will tell me it's no use to him and quit. How many of you are familiar with the Survey Technician program or classes? I'm not. I don't want to push him into something just to find out it doesn't apply. He has years of boundary but now its construction. If I could get him to take one class or program what would it be?
Do him a favor. Write him a licensing recommendation and outline his work under your license. Just like you would for any person using you as a reference for licensing. Have it notarized and put it with you legal documents. Sorry for sounding like a ghoul but I had one of my employers die before I could use him as a reference, fortunately there was a PE who was also a PS at the same company so I was able to document my work history. If he doesn't get he act together for a few years he can salvage the experience working for you, if you are worried about health issues.