Any NC surveyors have experience with getting "no conflict" responses to "survey" location (NC811) requests where you've observed obvious evidence of the same infrastructure being reported as "no conflict"? I think the locators ignore the "survey" requests. Any experiences?
Thanks!
J. Daniel Henry, post: 364990, member: 11507 wrote: Any NC surveyors have experience with getting "no conflict" responses to "survey" location (NC811) requests where you've observed obvious evidence of the same infrastructure being reported as "no conflict"? I think the locators ignore the "survey" requests. Any experiences?
Thanks!
On a daily basis.
One in particular actually had a gas sub station on the property. I called the utility company and was told it's not their problem. Keep your tickets in case it ever comes up. Ain't it a shame it is mandated by law for us to call in every survey yet the ones that wanted this law do not hold up their end.
Daniel, tell them you are going to be driving rebar to refusal and are DIGGING emphasize DIGGING. It's hard to get around the "survey ticket" when Surveying is in the company name. Also be wary of taking whatever plans they give you in place of actually marking the lines. I posed the question "If I take these copies (which are lucky to show which side of the street the utility is on) and you don't mark the line, and I hit it, am I liable." They answered yes, and I replied, Okay I will accept the plans without marking if you sign a release of liabilty. They finally marked the lines.
The law is to cover the utility company, not the digger.
It allows them to maintain their insurance.
Once their carrier is notified that they will not comply with your request, they may sing your tune.
In New Jersey, the One Call law does NOT allow survey mark outs. Mark outs are only for excavation and or demolition.
If you require u/g utility locations you need to hire a SUE firm or buy the equipment and do the mark out yourself.
Any excavation or driving deeper than 6 inches requires a One Call be requested.
This is an issue in my neck of the woods too.
Like Adam we often set rebar for control points or property corners so we submit a one-call locate request. There are two things I do to minimize the problem with the utility locators: 1) On the one-call locate request - just like Adam said - we let them know that we'll be setting control (rebar or 9/16" stainless steel rod driven to refusal or 40' if no refusal) at various - to be field determined - locations throughout the project area; 2) On site - Always have coffee and donuts (or bagels) for the locators at the site meet.
Remember, if you are working for the City, County, or State, the utilities are typically allowed within their ROW by permit. In our area, one condition of many more recent permits is that the utilities provide locates when the City/County/State requests them. IF this provision is not in the permit - you should work with your City/County/State client to have this language added to the permit - it won't help for existing utilities but anytime the permit is renewed or modified, that clause can attach. It's in the City/County/State's best interest to require design locates for the utilities in their ROWs - unforseen utilities have a huge impact on schedule and cost when they are encountered during construction.
We can locate on the spot just give us the location with Work scope and you got a Survey.
I appreciate the convenience and expediency that you bring to the table Surveyor Dean.
However, getting the locates via the one call locate center and having the utilities contractor (or the utility themselves) mark the lines is a much better option for us. If/when there is a problem during construction, we don't have to defend the accuracy/quality of the marking of the utility - we just have to be able to defend our location of the actual mark.
As much as I appreciate the expediency of marking utilities ourselves or having a subcontractor do it for us - that convenience is less valuable than the value of staying OUT of the chain of liability.
The problem for surveyors in NC is that we are required by law to have a location done before we can even set corners. This has led to surveyors being unable to get anything located at all, not that they would locate before the stupid new law.
Here in TX, they tend to ignore requests that contain the word "survey." We've taken to leaving it out entirely, and just specifying the type of work as excavation. They don't ignore that quite as much.
Chuck S, post: 365055, member: 698 wrote: In New Jersey, the One Call law does NOT allow survey mark outs. Mark outs are only for excavation and or demolition.
If you require u/g utility locations you need to hire a SUE firm or buy the equipment and do the mark out yourself.
Any excavation or driving deeper than 6 inches requires a One Call be requested.
You have no idea how hard it is to do engineering design without markouts... we typically schedule test pit digs to get the markout. Sometimes the dig happens, sometimes it doesn't. We get lucky because a lot of times we have to do demo work on the property, so when we start that work, we already have the markout and update the survey as needed.
I used to have a lot of trouble with this in Mississippi, but lately it seems to have improved. I can request a utility locate online now and choose "survey" as the purpose for the locate. The last few times I did that, they marked the utilities without complaint. The gas company did ask once to give me the plans rather than marking in the field. I accepted that and just passed the plans along to the engineer I contracted with.
Boy I am smiling that so many use the same idea we came up with. Driving rebar! Then they ask, "where yall driving rebar?" "Don't know yet, mark everything in this area"......small area like mine, 100k people, you know them, they know you. So they know we are surveyors, we just try to kill them with kindness.
C Billingsley, post: 367325, member: 1965 wrote: I used to have a lot of trouble with this in Mississippi, but lately it seems to have improved. I can request a utility locate online now and choose "survey" as the purpose for the locate. The last few times I did that, they marked the utilities without complaint. The gas company did ask once to give me the plans rather than marking in the field. I accepted that and just passed the plans along to the engineer I contracted with.
The utility companies have been trying to get a law passed for the past 7 years making anyone who does make an 811 call and damages a facility subject to penalties. It has been defeated every year till now. This year, Senate Bill 2755 passed and has been sent to the Governor. The Mississippi Association of Professional Surveyors (MAPS) put a lot of effort in defeating the bill in the past. Due to MAPS being a strong voice at the legislature, the the 811 folks actually approached us to get language in the bill that we could work with. The highlights of the new law that goes into effect July 1 is as follows:
a) Excavation is defined as anything that disturbs or displaces the soil at a depth of 12 inches or mare. Setting or driving metal rods or stakes for monuments or control points is excavation. Surveyors need to make the call before doing this 2 days prior to performing the work. Use the "Surveying with Stakes" option for the type of work.
b) Anyone, whether they are an excavator or operator, that does not comply with the requirements are subject to penalties, to include fines. So yes, MAPS got the language to include that if a surveyor makes that call and a utility does not mark the locations within 2 days, the utility is subject to the penalties and fines.
c) A "Design Information Request" can be made to get the location of utilities for topographic surveys or to be used in a design process. The utilities have 7 working days to mark the locations or provide information such as maps or plans that can be used to locate the facilities. If the utilities do not comply, they are subject to the penalties and fines.
d) MAPS gets a representative on the Council that will look at all complaints and determine what penalties and fines should be assessed.
The law is set to go into effect July 1, with the penalty enforcement to go into effect January 1, 2017.
The bill wasn't perfect, MAPS fought for an exemption for surveyors using hand tools, but I think getting the law to state that the utilities and locators will be subject to fines if they don't mark the locations for us is a win. The lawyer working for the 811 folks and a lobbyist for them agreed with me when I said that the first year there will be more complaints filed against utility operators and locators than excavators.
Some surveyors do not believe that the association should have a lobbyist or do such things as the "Surveyors Day at the Capital", but without that effort during the past years, we would not have gotten the language in the bill to help surveyors get utilities located.
Link to the full bill:
http://billstatus.ls.state.ms.us/documents/2016/pdf/SB/2700-2799/SB2755SG.pdf
We offer utility locating, but some clients prefer the one call system due to cost. I always tell them you get what you pay for. Some learn the hard way.
Joe W. Byrd, post: 371233, member: 10015 wrote: The utility companies have been trying to get a law passed for the past 7 years making anyone who does make an 811 call and damages a facility subject to penalties. It has been defeated every year till now. This year, Senate Bill 2755 passed and has been sent to the Governor. The Mississippi Association of Professional Surveyors (MAPS) put a lot of effort in defeating the bill in the past. Due to MAPS being a strong voice at the legislature, the the 811 folks actually approached us to get language in the bill that we could work with. The highlights of the new law that goes into effect July 1 is as follows:
a) Excavation is defined as anything that disturbs or displaces the soil at a depth of 12 inches or mare. Setting or driving metal rods or stakes for monuments or control points is excavation. Surveyors need to make the call before doing this 2 days prior to performing the work. Use the "Surveying with Stakes" option for the type of work.
b) Anyone, whether they are an excavator or operator, that does not comply with the requirements are subject to penalties, to include fines. So yes, MAPS got the language to include that if a surveyor makes that call and a utility does not mark the locations within 2 days, the utility is subject to the penalties and fines.
c) A "Design Information Request" can be made to get the location of utilities for topographic surveys or to be used in a design process. The utilities have 7 working days to mark the locations or provide information such as maps or plans that can be used to locate the facilities. If the utilities do not comply, they are subject to the penalties and fines.
d) MAPS gets a representative on the Council that will look at all complaints and determine what penalties and fines should be assessed.
Looks like the bill that got sent doesn't even mention A B or C. There is something about design request in there.
makerofmaps, post: 371284, member: 9079 wrote: Looks like the bill that got sent doesn't even mention A B or C. There is something about design request in there.
"a" from my previous post is from line 64 through line 107 in the linked bill.
"b" from the previous post is covered in line 176 through line 212, specifically line 176 through 179 in the linked bill:
77-13-27. Enforcement of damage prevention. (1) Any person, whether excavator or operator, who violates this chapter, or the rules or regulations promulgated under this chapter, shall be subject to a civil penalty as follows:
Operator is defined as any person who owns or operates a utility (lines 134-137)
"c" from my previous post is defined in line 55 through 60 in the linked bill. The 7 working day requirement for marking is contained in line 579 through 593 in the linked bill.
JKinAK, post: 365200, member: 7219 wrote: I appreciate the convenience and expediency that you bring to the table Surveyor Dean.
However, getting the locates via the one call locate center and having the utilities contractor (or the utility themselves) mark the lines is a much better option for us. If/when there is a problem during construction, we don't have to defend the accuracy/quality of the marking of the utility - we just have to be able to defend our location of the actual mark.
As much as I appreciate the expediency of marking utilities ourselves or having a subcontractor do it for us - that convenience is less valuable than the value of staying OUT of the chain of liability.
From personal experience, you are wrong. The utility companies and the locate companies have mutual defense clauses in their contracts. The utility can not sue the locator so they sue the Surveyor, Engineer and anyone else that is on the site. We called 811. We located their marks. We showed their marks on our plat. The contractor that lost a pan due to hitting an unmarked gas line sues the gas company, the gas company sues us, we sue the locator. The locator sues a mapping service. At the end of the day, it took more than $100K out of our bottom line with the settlement, loss time and attorney fees to resolve the issue. What you stated really should be the case. It is unfortunate that liability is not always related to fault. The present 811 systems is the cheapest way for utility companies to reduce their liability. They are not strictly in place to protect the public. I hope you never have the same experience that we had.