I'm sitting in the office today while dining on fine bologna (with White-White "Wonder Bread" that builds strong bodies 12 ways) and pickled jalapenos. I've got a kind of job up on the screen that, while not unique by any means, always takes a little finesse to figure out "what to do". And surely this problem can't be only here in Oklahoma. I'm betting other PLSS states have the same kind of wrinkles in their land line fabric.
We've been contracted to "stake" a few miles of the R/W of a State (80/20 feds) Highway that follows the section line for the relocation of my client's utility pole line. The pole line is planned to be 10' inside the R/W. The R/W, due to excavation and embankment concerns, winds it's happy way here and there with hardly ever a leg parallel with the section line. Pretty typical and I make a good living with these.
As usual, the State Highway Survey boys came through here and completely ignored practically every section and quarter corner for their survey. There are almost forty year old filed Corner References available and the most acknowledgement they've received is a note on the Highway boys' plans and references stating "disregarded found 3/8" rebar 5.5' east & 2.7' south" . They go about their merry way setting cartoon corners just to please themselves apparently.
Now this isn't anything new. What I've done today is reconstruct the R/W for staking using the highway corners. Sometimes I might do it the other way. Depends on the circumstances. Today, on the side of the road where the pole line is proposed, the Highway's R/W is actually closer to the section line than if I had used the age-honored corners. I do this a lot. The pole line gets in and when the State contracts the new fencing (that will invariably follow their R/W line) everything looks pretty and even. I guess I'm being guilty of "not rocking the boat".
Now I'm wondering if I'm getting too old and complacent to be making these decisions. In the "big picture" I'm not seeing anything that could be trouble for an adjoiner. When I do boundary work it's a different story and I try to adhere to the corners that have existed, been perpetuated and are usually corroborated by older surveys and occupational evidence. Today, for the sake of keeping the utility ball rolling, I'm using the highway corners. Am I screwing up more than I realize?
Just thought I'd ask you all out there what you guys do in this situation. I can't be the only one that runs into this.
I am assuming the highway guys created the R/W... in that case you must use the R/W and only try to back it in from side calls as a last resort.
was the R/W created by Map only? or is there a conflicting worded description? (follow the footsteps, even when they step in dog dodo)
Would it help or confuse things to show both the "Highway Department Section Line" and "Monumented Section Line" or some labels to that affect to show the difference between the two?
Andy Nold, post: 326008, member: 7 wrote: Would it help or confuse things to show both the "Highway Department Section Line" and "Monumented Section Line" or some labels to that affect to show the difference between the two?
Andy, I have done that on a survey because the R/W "takes" were actually described (and pinned) from the ODOT corners, but the estate (and some out parcels originating from said estate) were all firmly attached to the older and established corners. Things can get a little tedious when dealing with such matters.
But today, I'm just staking R/W for a pole line...so I guess I just acquiesce to the newer highway dept. lines..out of, maybe laziness?
Show that you are following the right-of-way as created by Doofus and Assoc. for ODOT. I would add a footnote in small print somewhere that said r-o-w may or may not agree with standard boundary line determinations using proven section corners.
You can NEVER stuff all the buggs back in the jar....
BECAUSE the "existing" section corners will be destroyed.
Complain to the State BOR. I mean, file one. With documentation. I mean, this has the potential to screw up the 'hood in ways and means, for so long, that it is simply not worth it.
They need to RE-do their acquisition.
N
Nate The Surveyor, post: 326039, member: 291 wrote: ...Complain to the State BOR...
Great idea, Nate. But in Oklahoma, it's not that simple. Here's why: The BOR & ODOT are both State agencies. The BOR has a finite budget and actually contracts with an attorney when they finally get down to "grill" someone over professional infractions. Plain and simple, the State Board can only afford to "fry" a certain number of people a year.
I have a long time friend and colleague that runs the "compliance" investigations department at the Board. We've had several discussions about this problem. He just cannot convince HIS boss to spend money to try and throw another state agency under the bus. It won't ever happen. His boss is convinced it would make them all look like fools.
politics, politics, politics.......
As Beavis, or is it Butthead, would say, "Sucks!"
paden cash, post: 325999, member: 20 wrote: ... surely this problem can't be only here in Oklahoma. ....
One of the jobs I did while in OK was a retracement of 2 miles of Highway 33 in Kingfisher County. The situation was exactly as you describe. The highway boys sailed right past the middle section corner by 2 feet, acknowledging the found monument as the section corner while doing so. Quarter corners were assigned stations but no monument was found or set. This original work was done in the late 30's as I recall. The point is that it didn't seem to be laziness or ignorance. It was fully intentional and acknowledged.
FWIW, I think it may be unique to OK. More to the point, unique to OK DOT. It's been going on so long it's in their DNA. I haven't seen anything like it in OR or WA.
I have 99% of the time, viewed highway lines as senior lines because they typically were cut through. In the rare instances where it follows and is common with a railroad, I see the 1%. So, if locating the highway, by the highway corners, is wrong, then I've been doing it wrong because those would be, 99% of the time, original corners.
Whether or not it was supposed to be common with a tract/survey/section line is, to me, irrelevant.
paden cash, post: 326044, member: 20 wrote: Great idea, Nate. But in Oklahoma, it's not that simple. Here's why: The BOR & ODOT are both State agencies. The BOR has a finite budget and actually contracts with an attorney when they finally get down to "grill" someone over professional infractions. Plain and simple, the State Board can only afford to "fry" a certain number of people a year.
I have a long time friend and colleague that runs the "compliance" investigations department at the Board. We've had several discussions about this problem. He just cannot convince HIS boss to spend money to try and throw another state agency under the bus. It won't ever happen. His boss is convinced it would make them all look like fools.
politics, politics, politics.......
It all depends on how the easement/right-of-way taking/purchase took place and how the descriptions were written in the filed documents. You can run stuff all over the place to suit your needs but you danged well better address title issues correctly. You are messing with ownership rights. Not a wise thing to do incorrectly.
two separate things:
1. Section lines (original property lines)
2. R/W lines
your job is the R/w lines, solve them. job done.
THEN, if you want (and you should), find the section lines too.
then lay the R/W over the Section lines and file a record.
"I guess I'm being guilty of "not rocking the boat".
I call it choosing the time and place of my battles.
I'm assuming these are section line easements that don't jive with the original section and quarter corners.
Just add a disclaimer note 'Beware. Here be Dragons'. :whistle:
Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
I filed the FIRST fully recognized complaint in the state of Arkansas. I did it in my dad's name, as I was not yet a PLS. It was against Gary Whitfield PLS 882. His work was so bad, that well, it was just bad. It needed to be filed. I wrote a notarized letter, and included some 50 copies of surveys, that were bad. Documented the problems. It got swept under the rug. Another BOR member found it. It was a stink. How can we EXPECT our BOR to do anything, when we don't give them alot to go on? So, I did my part.
N
Nate The Surveyor, post: 326222, member: 291 wrote: ....How can we EXPECT our BOR to do anything, when we don't give them alot to go on? So, I did my part....
I would not say that the OK board is inactive. They investigate and discipline people at a fair clip. But there is a lot of grist for their mill, and it grinds slowly.
It would be tough to discipline anyone for doing what Paden described. It's been standard practice in the state by the highest authorities for decades. And there is lots of lower hanging fruit for the board to go after.
Just do your part. If it grinds slow, start early! 🙂 I Mr 882 is out of the pic now. Another came along, to take up the slack, for cheap surveying. He's gone now. It's grinding slowly here. Sometimes ya hafta put her in reverse, because reverse is geared lower than low! (and back up the hill!) remember the old Model T?