Okay....nevermind
I see we can't relate very well. I started to write a response, but I can see you don't really want a real discussion.
I hope you can come to terms with how to avoid pincushioning or gather some wisdom from someone else.
Yes Doug, that is a post for a six foot chain link erected by the adjacent landowners.
I got a chance to speak with them while asking permission to enter their land hunting down monuments. They mentioned they erected these fences on their own without the benefit of a survey. The post you're looking at was installed by threading their chain link in and around a number of 12"-14" hackberrys that had thrived in the old fence line.
Sighting the fence, it looks about as bad as it sounds.
> I think that I'd be tempted to hold the one I find is closest to the calculated or occupied lien/corner and start pulling the others. That's the cure for this sort of abomination!!
That might (probably would) be supporting the latest pincushioner. Maybe it would be better to determine which one you think was there first and start pulling the others.....? But I don't know. Just a thought.
Or could that 2" pipe be a "sawed off" sign post, of which many I have found.
I would talk to all adjoining landowners and call the surveyors who contributed to this mess. Good luck!
Ah.. The dreaded paper pincushion. Corners you can't even see!
Okay....nevermind
> I hope you can come to terms with how to avoid pincushioning or gather some wisdom from someone else.
Pretty rude and arrogant statement.
It seems he asked a simple question. From your initial reply you state:
"My methodology is to make my best professional judgement as to which monument represents the "true" corner."
If, in your professional opinion, none of the monuments represent the "true" corner - how do you proceed in the situation. For some folks, it is difficult to make a decision that junk in the vicinity is actually NOT a corner monument. Others seem to suggest that because all of those pieces of iron are in the ground, they are all elevated to corner status - now that makes for an odd looking property line running through all of those 'corner markers'.
Bear Bait -
Assumed - I have already surveyed enough of the neighborhood to feel comfortable that I have all the necessary information. If that is not the case then the first step is actually go back and do enough field work to proceed.
In a situation as posted, the first step for me is to have another talk with all of the neighbors to get feedback about the pins/pipes found. That may include neighbors farther out from the situation for history of the neighborhood.
The second step for me is to call the surveyors with the capped pins and make sure that I have not missed anything that they have found. I offer to provide the information I have and meet to discuss solutions. The 2-inch pipe looks convincing, but from the post, we don't know enough about it just yet.
If, as you suggested, there is valid reason to decide all of those pins poked in the ground are not the actual corner, I would discuss with all affected neighbors and make sure they understood what was going on. I would set a pin where my opinion places it. I would document the location of all the other pins on my map.
GREAT ANSWER!!!!!
Okay....nevermind
> > I hope you can come to terms with how to avoid pincushioning or gather some wisdom from someone else.
>
> Pretty rude and arrogant statement.
>
> It seems he asked a simple question. From your initial reply you state:
>
> "My methodology is to make my best professional judgement as to which monument represents the "true" corner."
I agree, perhaps it was rude. I made a response at first explaining myself further and edited to what you see. I changed it only after reading some of his other posts to me in another thread. It made me feel he was just trying to poke holes in my post instead of discussing them. Maybe I was wrong. I will step out of this with apologies. Sorry.
well, that could be an option. I'd first want to make my own decision, based on many factors, but I would hate to leave that mess in the ground!
Okay....nevermind
Jon,
Thanks for the feedback. I am printing it and including it in my big binder notebook that caries all the “non-book” knowledge I have collected about surveying.
Every situation is different and I sometimes get caught up in depending solely on just plats and found corners and forget how much the landowner can actually contribute to the process.
Fortunately for me I do mostly original surveys or retracements of original surveys, so I don't run into pincushions very often. I did run into a kind of funny situation last year when I recovered a corner and low and behold there were three AL3 caps all within 4 tenths of each other but at varying depths.
The corners were all stamped by a long time local surveyor who had retired since. He has an excellent reputation so how it happened I don’t know, but we fixed it.
> Old part of town and loaded with opinions.
There are 2 kinds of pincushions.
On the one hand is the kind where a crew is sent out with precalc'd dimensions from a deed or plat. They jump on a couple of pins they find as a basis of bearings and set the corners, maybe with a cursory search for exisiting monuments at the corners to be set, maybe not. Probably very cursory when they find a metal fence post in the vicinity. This is the sort of pin cushion to be abhorred.
When "pin surveys" are done for $500 or less that is pretty much how they are done. Somebody please tell me I'm wrong. Pin cushioning isn't caused by one surveyor thinking he is a better measurer than another. It is caused by the need to get in and out quickly in order to meet razor thin budgets.
On the other is what we have here, where a thorough search of the corner has revealed the results of years of deed staking. Now the surveyor has to make some decisions. There is no particular reason that any one of these be controlling, and the prudent surveyor must choose to reject all but one, and may finally reject that one, too. In which case it is perfectly acceptable to set one of his own. But if you do reject them all you should feel strongly enough about it to pull them before you set your own.
FWIW, that 2 incher sure looks good, presuming it isn't an old fence post. In Oregon, up until the mid '90's, a 2" pipe was required at one of the exterior plat corners. Pointless, but fact. If you find a 2" pipe in Oregon it is most likely the "Initial Point" of the plat. This doesn't happen to be on the exterior plat boundary, does it? And, what was found at other corners in the neighborhood?
>But if you do reject them all you should feel strongly enough about it to pull them before you set your own.
Depending on the OP's location, I would hesitate to provide this advice. From the Kentucky standards of practice:
"All existing record monuments discovered during the performance of the survey shall be preserved and shall not be altered or destroyed."
While I try my best to do a complete search of the records, there is always the possibility that there is an improperly indexed document floating around out there.
Once you decide that piece of iron stuck in the ground there isn't a monument and you need to set a new one, you're not technically destroying a monument are you? Yank that thing so there's no confusion for the landowners. They just want to know where their corner is.
Monument - Corner
Two different creatures.
I would be less concerned about an uncapped iron object if I had finalized a decision that it was not the corner (and discussed with all property owners).
However, the capped rods would have me concerned that there may be a recorded document. Of course some of that can be alleviated by talking with the licensees who capped the rebar.
Perhaps at the time of the survey, there was a post in place and the other surveyor decided to set a witness monument and since then the fence post has been removed. That would make the found rod a monument, but not the corner. Then I would need to find out is it of record.
"..And, what was found at other corners in the neighborhood?"
Everything! I think I can fairly account for nearly every type of monument, less a 2-1/2" zinc oxide pipe with a BLM cap. Pipes range from 1/2" to 2", ptp and open top.
Iron rods range from 1/4" to 1", bent, spinner, straight, buried, exposed, capped and not capped, and one periscope. Cut and chiseled "X"s with and without a center punch. Mag nails...I think that covers it there.
I'm not sure whether i just caused registered to pull his hair out on this one. I have somewhere around three dozen irons tied on this particular job. In my way of thinking, and in defense of what I've done here, I could juxtapose this effort against the lot surveys that contributed to this pile-up. Now registered has a pretty fair view of whats gone down here, and to be fair, this has compiled over decades.
Once again its an old part of town and a lot of things have transpired over the years.
Knowing this, and scared to death of what might have gone down, the field work followed what was likely the most solid and defensible reconstruction.
The periscope
The periscope re-visited.
