The young RLS who works for me likes to moonlight on the weekends. He did an elevation certificate on an existing slab in an "A" zone for a man. The local county has extended its control of building permits to preclude anyone from getting electricity till they are satisfied. They required an EC for the building permit. The county "Certified Floodplain Manager" kicked it back as incomplete because he didn't establish a BFE for the slab. When he questioned her, she basically told him that he was incompetent and that his client should find a qualified engineer. She also said that he needed to "educate himself". Have any of you across our great land ever been required by local yokel bureaucrats to establish a BFE for an "A" zone or to otherwise modify an Elevation Certificate?
That's what I've always had to do in an "A" zone, doing a bunch of them now. Run cross-sections, give to engineer and they send back the BFE for the structure.
I'm lucky enough to work in an area with knowledgeable flood plain managers, they will provide me with the BFE if I ask. They work with on-staff engineers and provide this as part of their job. FEMA strongly suggests that all members of their program develop BFEs for all zone As, and, according to FEMA, there are some situations where the flood plain managers are required to provide the BFE. It's part of their obligation for being accepted into the NFIP.
This PDF is the flood plain management guide for Zone As. It outlines a couple of methods for coming with BFEs, but keep in mind the "simple" methods are not to be used for elevation certs, and the detailed methods I wouldn't touch. It seems more engineering than surveying.
http://www.fema.gov/media-library-data/20130726-1545-20490-4110/frm_zna.pdf
I can't find it off hand, but I also remember reading a doc that outlines a surveyor's responsibility when working in a Zone A. It recommended contacting the flood plane manager for a "community determined" BFE, and if that didn't work, they recommended contacting the ACOE, DOT, DNR, etc., to see if they ever developed a BFE for the area. If not, it said to go ahead and use Section E. That's what section E is there for. They don't expect surveyors to do it on their own.
Edit: Here's the other Doc, page 20. Note that is specifically says that a surveyor can not create a BFE on their own, it must come from an engineer. But this doc also says that completing section E is good enough, unless they are going for a LOMA.
http://www.fema.gov/media-library-data/20130726-1511-20490-9287/fema467-6-10-04.pdf
In Texas, the Floodplain Manager for the county is REQUIRED to give the BFE, when requested.
"Dane,
Be cautious about the advice others have given here. Use of Section E or use of the simplified methods are likely not appropriate and very well may not provide for either the correct flood risk/insurance rating and subsequent rates charged, nor will it provide the owner with the correct understanding of risk he/she is encountering.
The use of Quick D is an engineering analysis. In California, where you practice, this is restricted to the practice of civil engineering.
I do a lot of these. It is my area of expertise. However, I am both a civil engineer and a land surveyor. There are a number of methods, information sources and steps one must go through to establish what the true BFE is. Sometimes it is relatively easy and fairly inexpensive, sometimes it can be very involved. Either way, it involves both risk assessment and the provider of the BFE assumes significant risk.
All too often, providers try and "help" the owner by trying to force a solution that meets the structure or site desires of the owner.
My advice to you is to consult with an engineer who specializes in hydraulic and hydrological studies. This is not a surveying exercise, it falls into the realm of a subset specialty of the practice of civil engineering.
Like I said, I do a lot of this kind of work and practice in your area. While I'm currently booked 6 months out for projects, I would be happy to discuss your project needs and go further in depth as to why some of the surveyor's advice given here by others is not well informed and incorrect."
Above from the linked Beerleg discussion. I used to do some Engineering technician stuff back in the day. I know enough to know that I am ignorant as to determing flood elevations. I am passing familiar with upstream drainage areas, coefficients of the different ground types, impediments to natural flow, different flood intensities, etc. There is no way in %$%$ the county should be requiring a BFE for a shed.
ahh yes the Certified Flood Plain Manager...I spent the better part of last Friday trying to placate a CFM at the county who could not understand that is not my job to remap a LOMR-F for the county. I didnt do the LOMR-F and the county should have the paperwork. She wanted me to perform an EC on something that was now in zone-x or map the area for her. I told her I would gladly do that but the county would have to pay, not my client.
Same here do cross sections give to engineer , get back BFE .
“The young RLS who works for me likes to moonlight on the weekends.”
Better advise your liability insurance carrier you allow “moonlighting” or your butt could be left out to dry, financially speaking. B-)
> Have any of you across our great land ever been required by local yokel bureaucrats to establish a BFE for an "A" zone or to otherwise modify an Elevation Certificate?
That's pretty standard around here. Attempts at getting a BFE out of the various agencies has always resulted in a lot of phone calls and emails, but no BFEs.
> but keep in mind the "simple" methods are not to be used for elevation certs
To clarify, there's nothing wrong with using a simplified method for an Elev Cert, but the BFE so established won't be accepted by FEMA for flood insurance rating purposes.
The simplified BFEs are accepted by the local floodplain manager for the purpose of building permit issuance, which is the only reason I ever do them. I always reiterate the FEMA verbiage as to the proper application of the methods -- on the cert and in my contract -- in order to put everyone on notice regarding how the BFE was derived, what it is and what it isn't.
Makes me so happy to only deal with Coastal Zones.
It is incredibly frustrating to have maps delineating Zone A's but no BFE's to work with. FEMA has all the data. Why do they refuse to share? The only excuse I can come up with is that FEMA uses this inflated expense for the homeowner to quietly discourage them from doing anything near a Zone A.
Same deal up here. I have found that most counties in Florida that I have dealt with will provide you a BFE in a Zone A. I thought that it was a requirement to participate in the NFIP. The only exception that I have found is that some of the rural communities often do not have the staff to give you one.
Thanks Jim- this is exactly our situation.
I must admit that I didn't help my young surveyor very much with this as I have turned down Flood Certs for years and haven't dealt with the local county since they have installed a "Certified Flood Plain Manager". I was thinking Flood Elevation Certificate for Flood Insurance; she was thinking Flood Elevation Certificate for Building Permit- two different expectations from the EC. She told him that he needed to educate himself and I really hate to say it but she was probably right on that point. I believe he has determined a BFE that he is comfortable with and all he needs now is the verbiage to limit the scope and describe his method.
Thanks again.
It is incredibly frustrating to have maps delineating Zone A's but no BFE's to work with. FEMA has all the data.
Holy, if there is "data" for these abominations I shudder to think what it might be in my area, the last three BFE's for a zone A I've done have been:
8' below the LAG (that one the map showed the house just out of the zone but the bank made a fuss and we were able to also take the outbuildings out which were shown in the zone);
7' below the floor of the BASEMENT(that one the zone just clipped the house, but come on!!);
and 13' below the LAG, the worst of the lot the zone was probably above the eves of the house if plotted.
I can't see that any "data" was used to generate these flood zones. What it might be I have no idea.
Just a little secret, if you write FEMA a letter as part of a LOMA application requesting that they determine the BFE for the flooding source at the structure, they will.
They have the data. But, they are lousy map makers.
How? I wouldn't trust it, then my client would be in a real mess:-(
To clarify, there's nothing wrong with using a simplified method for an Elev Cert, but the BFE so established won't be accepted by FEMA for flood insurance rating purposes.
The simplified BFEs are accepted by the local floodplain manager for the purpose of building permit issuance, which is the only reason I ever do them. I always reiterate the FEMA verbiage as to the proper application of the methods -- on the cert and in my contract -- in order to put everyone on notice regarding how the BFE was derived, what it is and what it isn't.
Good point, Jim. I always think of elevation certificates as being only for the purpose of getting flood insurance.
But, it does seem like a surveyor would be opening themselves to liability if a surveyor used a "simplified" method to set the building height, to satisfy a local CFPM. Then later, the owner required flood insurance, had a detailed study done, found the building was too low based on a more accurate method, and would get a punitive flood insurance rate.
I reread the Zone A guide, and it does say just what you said, but it sure seems like a dangerous practice.
