The owner of the machine is responsible for the files that they use. They might be wise to hire a surveyor if the surveyor knows that technical skill. Then again, they might be wise to hire a skilled technician.
I think anyone who is qualified should be able.
Copied from another discussion about this topic in LinkedIn that summaries what I believe.
"Recently, many "Land" Surveyors and "Design" Engineers lacking experience and understanding of construction staking/3D modeling are attempting to provide these services and their failures are creating skepticism and loss of trust for everyone else in the industry. Unfortunately, as with many things, failure ultimately leads to success. The good ones will rise but the bad ones will continue to get opportunities until the level of the knowledge regarding 3D modeling is elevated among them, contractors, owners, and project managers."
I have run into this firsthand. A contractor that I had been creating models for decided to use an Engineering/Surveying firm to get their models. After a few bad models from the E/S firm, the contractor is back with me and actually apologized for going to another firm.
Makes me wonder two things:
1. How many licensed surveyors in the state of North Carolina are actually qualified by education and/or experience to prepare machine control, and
2. How many machine control projects are currently underway in the state?
My bet is there are a lot more machine control projects than there are qualified surveyors.
Just because you're licensed doesn't mean that you are qualified, nor does it mean that more qualified persons need a license to perform the service. I'm licensed, and I don't have any desire to perform a service that I'm not qualified to perform.
JBS
When I was working in Tennessee a few years back, a local guy (licensed surveyor) got wind that I was making 3D models that was being used for machince control at the county airport expansion.
After first approaching me in person (didn't go well fo him), he turned me in to the Tennessee board.
A very lovely lady contacted me and discussed his concerns that I was surveying without a license. I told her that yes, not only had I made the model for that airport, but one for the next county over as well, and a slew of other construction projects from Knoxville to Chattanooga.
The only thing that came out of it was that we had to remove the words "Survey Crew" from our work trucks.
"...Furthermore the licensing boards have little or NO authority to stop persons from offering or performing model creation, and no licensing boards police unlicensed activity..."
You might check out Arizona BTR
You will see two firms were fined $2,000 for unlicensed practice.
For what reason and purpose should this be regulated? If you screw up you pay, most effective regulation (without any license or government) requlation there is.
We should be removing the requirement for all kinds of licensing not trying to add more. Heck, we are so regulated now it's almost impossible to do anything economically. You should get work because they need you not because they must hire a license to do it. We are not quite broke yet but before long you will be able to do about what you want.
I believe it should be the responsibility of Construction Surveyors. It is, after all, just another form of construction stakeout.
If your state requires a license for that, then so be it.
But I don't see a problem with supervised technicians performing the model building, if the site was Professionally Surveyed, and the design was Professionally Engineered.
REALLY??
"Anybody should be allowed to do this, as long as they are willing to assume the risks and liabilities associated with it. That's why they invented insurance."
I presume you would apply this logic to other practices also? Doctors? Lawyers? Anyone should be allowed to practice...? Really?
Now that is Libertarianism!!
> .... I wonder how many letters the NC board wrote to Bock and Clark?
I'd like to know that myself, although I can guess the answer.
REALLY??
I was going to play devil's advocate by adding Surveyors to the mix. 😉
they sent two back in 2007... and they meant jacksh#*t
http://www.member-base.net/ncbelsDiscDoc/showimage.aspx?Doc_Id=40 0">NCBELS letter to Bock & Clark
... Thad's faith in his board's power shows that he is not in the know.
I guess I have faith that entities would do their jobs though there may have to be some prodding.
Hell, I might even start to do surveying since nothing will ever happen!!!!
thad... you are a licensee
... you are a licensee, so you have something to loose. The North Carolina Board will take your license if you are brought up on those charges in another state... but then again you dont have to play by there rules anymore once they take your PE... move out of state, keep building models, business as usual.... they really have no power.
thad... you are a licensee
It would save on costs to not keep my license current for sure.
I have a client who is a grading contractor here in town who started using machine control about the time the recession began. He called me and asked me about it before he purchased it and I explained to him how it worked and that you get out of it what you put into it. That he would need somebody experienced with it to be able to make it operational and cost effective. I gave him some names of some fellow surveyors I knew who were extremely experienced at this.
Now we roll ahead about a year. He purchased the equipment from a company in Raleigh, NC and began using it on his larger projects. I have lunch with the other surveyors I had referred him too at least once a week. I asked them if he had contacted them, no dice. About six months after the contractor had began using this equipment he called and wanted to know if I knew any surveyors in WV where he was working, at the time I didn't so I googled some names and told him to contact them.
About a year ago the grading contractor got a railroad job here in town. I was doing the layout for the building and had seen him out there. He calls about two weeks after that and says he needs me to lay the railroad center line out because the construction management company says it's off about 8".
So we go out and stake the railroad. That evening after the grading guy had met with the construction guy, the salesman from the company in Raleigh that sold him the equipment calls and wants a copy of my cad file for the layout. Now a light bulb goes off. This project is on it's own coordinate system that was what was used when they built the power plant and it is still used today and it is shifted 8" from NAD83. I inquired about the nature of his needing my cad file. He tells me that he is checking the equipment to see if it is messed up or what. Fair enough, but i still have my suspicions that this unlicensed equipment salesman is doing the models.
Now roll ahead about six months. The grading contractor calls me about doing and as-built on another job and hands me a fresh as-built drawing done by one of the surveyors in the projects locality. I ask him why he needs another as-built and he tells me that it's because the other guy did not locate a permanent BMP correctly and will not fix it. I take the job, but call the other surveyor before hand to see what he can tell me. He tells me that the grading folks did there own layout and did not get the elevations right on the dam or the spillway of said BMP and since he wouldn't certify that they were correct they had come to me because the state wouldn't sign off on the project.
We go out and do the as-built and my shots are within hundredths of being the same elevation as the other surveyors shots. I give him the as-built and as soon as he looks at the numbers I can tell he's pissed.
Low and behold about an hour later the salesman calls and asks for my cad file. This time I tell him no can do, but I would be glad to provide him with a paper copy of the survey, of course he declined. He has the grading guy call me and ask for it and I inform him of the NC law. The grading guy goes to cussing a blue streak.
Of course now he has contacted one of the surveyors I gave him before for his last two projects. 😉
Mike,
You are welcome to forward my name to your contractor if he would like another quote from an experienced modeler. I have next week off so I will be free to travel and visit if that would help.
TIA
Thad,
If he ever calls me about it again I'll give him your info.
He was pretty steamed with me and the other local guy that reminded him about the NC Law.
With that being said he always tries to cut corners and bend the rules (ie. DENR, DWQ, planning). He'll get PO'd with what we charge him to correct these situations and swear we are bleeding him dry, but he always comes back, he always pays the retainer and the check is dropped off when the map is picked up.
TURF WAR
This Turf war is a insult and to why who pay us well to do what we do
regardless of some cheese license on the wall
To be blunt i quit paying fees (payolla) to to my Union aka technical association
so that at they can sell my / brand me as a professional
Well my valued custommers don't give a hoot about my framed wall paper
just my product which is a tough job every day.
Peter
REALLY??
> "Anybody should be allowed to do this, as long as they are willing to assume the risks and liabilities associated with it. That's why they invented insurance."
>
> I presume you would apply this logic to other practices also? Doctors? Lawyers? Anyone should be allowed to practice...? Really?
>
> Now that is Libertarianism!!
What are saying by this? How does this compare to practicing Medicine?
And by the way, anybody can represent themselves in a court of law. Prisoners write writs of Habeas Cropus all the time and their stuff makes it to the Supreme Court. Steve Jobs died perhaps because he chose his own eastern path to healing and not a Doctor. I would have to say that Mr. Jobs was a very smart guy, who might have made the wrong choice.
Now, is this your area of expertise?
If so bring it on, Mr. License. It also appears to me that you have no idea why you're even licensed. Who are you protecting and from what in this case? Furthermore, what does a Surveyor's license add to this service? A Guarantee? Liability? Professional Conduct?
I will patiently await your response.
Ralph
