So working on a project. Last surveyor out there was 17 years ago and he is dead now. Our parcel is remainder after other deeds come out. Had to set ALL corners. Most fit pretty well, but hit an issue. If I turn other survey angle to the west out, it puts us approx. 5 feet from a chain link fence that is probably about as old as their map. Fence grown over by tall (taller than 8 ft) privet. Poked around at fence, found old remnants of flagging. I mean brittle old. My gut says the fence is best evidence of the line and the person to the west has a darned good case for adverse rights. So I want to reference that line as determined by long standing occupation and the flagging evidence but don't know how to word the flagging. Any ideas?
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Jawja, post: 440857, member: 12766 wrote: the flagging evidence
"Surveyor Droppings"
That will not work but it made my wife and I laugh!
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Are you going to use the fence as a property line?
To a set iron rod capped etc... for corner to which a chain link fence post with old flagging that was either use to mark pervious property corner or is the corner
bears N degree min sec W xx amout of feet of the herein described tract;
or
Along and with a chain link fence to a set iron rod capped etc.... of the herein described tract;
Yes, I am going to honor the fence. The people to the west have occupied in such a way that it looks like they thought they owned to the fence. In Georgia, after 7 yrs in that situation adverse possession would apply. It was open, exclusive use of the property. Theirs was the senior property. I just am having a heck of a time not honoring the fence. The corner at the southwest fell slap under the fence. I think both our owner and they believed the fence to be on the line.
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It's that darned "NORTH" thing again. Everybody knows where north is....................except those who don't.
Jawja, post: 440862, member: 12766 wrote: Yes, I am going to honor the fence. The people to the west have occupied in such a way that it looks like they thought they owned to the fence. In Georgia, after 7 yrs in that situation adverse possession would apply. It was open, exclusive use of the property. Theirs was the senior property. I just am having a heck of a time not honoring the fence. The corner at the southwest fell slap under the fence. I think both our owner and they believed the fence to be on the line.
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I'm usually one to argue against those that say "a surveyor can't .... , time to hire a lawyer", but in this case they may be right. If your only reason to hold the fence is adverse possesion you are overstepping your proffesional authority.
If they both belived the fence is the line you may not be dealing with adverse possession. If you think the fence is the best evidence of the original location of the line, or the intentions of the parties to the document that created the line, then no adverse possesion in neccisiary.
Remember the adverse part of adverse possesion. All it takes is verbal permission for it not to be adverse. Many adverse possesion cases are decided by which party the judge trusts more in the court room.
I would try to find another reason to use the fence, and make sure you explain yourself on the plat (or whatever you call it there), or put the line where it should go and tell you clients they may want to come to an agrement with their neighbors to solve the problem.
If your client is getting along with the neighbor campaign for them discussing your findings and making a formal agreement, whatever method is available to transfer/clear title. It's their land, don't muck it up.
Try to clear it up, this is part of our public service... and we get paid for your extra work to boot.
If they both agree to the line, I agree it may well not be adverse possession. I certainly wouldn't use those words on a plat. It might meet the standards for "acquiescence" in your State, but, I don't know if that is within the surveyor's purview. I think John Stahl would say it was. I agree that, if you can make a case of the fence being the best available evidence as to the original line, that is definitely within your scope as a land surveyor. See if the owners have any knowledge of how and why the fence was built where it was (was it a fence of convenience, or were they setting a boundary-line fence?
I don't think that holding the fence is making a claim for adverse possession as much as acquiescence of the parties as to where the property line is located.
Does the fence establish the original intent of the conveyance?
To me, this is all over the place
1.
Jawja, post: 440857, member: 12766 wrote: My gut says the fence is best evidence of the line
Okay...in that case then the fence memorializes and perpetuates the location of the original survey - no adverse possession, no agreed boundary
2.
Jawja, post: 440862, member: 12766 wrote: The people to the west have occupied in such a way that it looks like they thought they owned to the fence. In Georgia, after 7 yrs in that situation adverse possession would apply
Okay...but if #1 or #3 is true, then this can't be the case because the fence is either on the line as originally staked, or on the line as agreed to. Nothing adverse about that
3.
Jawja, post: 440862, member: 12766 wrote: I think both our owner and they believed the fence to be on the line.
Okay...but if this is true, then #2 doesn't matter because if they agree to the line, then there is no open occupation or hostility.
Also...the courts in some states have ruled that both parties believing the fence is on the line nullifies any concept of agreement or acquiescence. IF the parties are in mistaken believe that the fence is on the original boundary as surveyed, then they aren't, in fact, agreeing to anything. These states will differentiate between "we don't know where the boundary markers truly are per the plat/deed, so we'll both just use the fence" and "we don't know where the boundary markers truly are per the plat/deed, but we believe the fence marks them."
foggyidea, post: 440963, member: 155 wrote: I don't think that holding the fence is making a claim for adverse possession as much as acquiescence of the parties as to where the property line is located.
Does the fence establish the original intent of the conveyance?
That is kind of what I am thinking. The area was real light on physical evidence. Everything to the north and east hits well. I am coming off irons to the south that are on common bearing for the trouble property to the east. The fence is about 2 degrees off the map bearing/deed bearing. Old flagging was on deed distance for reference iron, bearded in leaves and debris of privet. I had to crawl on my belly to find it and am pretty sure that nobody had a clue to its existence. The only thing other thing that makes me feel the fence is meant to be line is both property owners said it was.
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This may be obvious, but does the plat close? If not does placing the error on that line match the fence? Just my initial thoughts.
Andy
Mark Mayer, post: 440858, member: 424 wrote: "Surveyor Droppings"
In yew olde times, flagging on fences was placed on fences at a right angle offset from a corner for a tie for future recovery. The info was recorded in the notes. Also flagging would be tied vertically to a nearby fence between strands by the instrument person to set a backsight on a flop before they came ahead.
Surveyor droppings?
Robert Hill, post: 440995, member: 378 wrote: Surveyor droppings?
if we want to attract new blood into the profession we should use a classier name: Geomatics Spoor
Sounds like you don't have a preponderance of evidence telling you the fence is the line. If they both agree the fence is the boundary, they should have no problem putting this in writing.
Jawja, post: 440976, member: 12766 wrote: That is kind of what I am thinking. The area was real light on physical evidence. Everything to the north and east hits well. I am coming off irons to the south that are on common bearing for the trouble property to the east. The fence is about 2 degrees off the map bearing/deed bearing. Old flagging was on deed distance for reference iron, bearded in leaves and debris of privet. I had to crawl on my belly to find it and am pretty sure that nobody had a clue to its existence. The only thing other thing that makes me feel the fence is meant to be line is both property owners said it was.
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Then I think you are done with this phase of your work.
You have the two parties in agreement, but there is some ambiguity in the record.
I suggest, prior to filing your map, having those owners form a formal agreement and clear the title... then note that agreement on your map...
In California that could be a bit of an issue, depending on the local agencies involved.
Some would call it a transfer of ownership and demand they go thru some sort of lengthy Subdivision process.
Fortunately some County Surveyors will support your finding of Existing Title Location and assist with filing a Record of Survey and explaining that to the other taxing and planning goobers.
@ Jawja tell us where you are and perhaps one of the geniuses here can help with your processing hurdles.
Peter Ehlert, post: 440999, member: 60 wrote: @ Jawja tell us where you are
You don't speak southern, do you? 😉
Andy Bruner, post: 440984, member: 1123 wrote: This may be obvious, but does the plat close? If not does placing the error on that line match the fence? Just my initial thoughts.
Andy
Water call on the plat. So they are going to force close. Our deed (survey for closing) used same bearing as on west property while they have different angles on south line. (They share south line for 15 feet+/-). I just keep coming back to the fence. It is old. It is grown over. Both properties have lived with it as the "line". The deed bearing just opens a whole can of worms and the fence can meet both waterline calls for distance.
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Jawja, post: 441001, member: 12766 wrote: Water call on the plat. So they are going to force close. Our deed (survey for closing) used same bearing as on west property while they have different angles on south line. (They share south line for 15 feet+/-). I just keep coming back to the fence. It is old. It is grown over. Both properties have lived with it as the "line". The deed bearing just opens a whole can of worms and the fence can meet both waterline calls for distance.
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I would put the Boundary on something you can hang your hat on property corners you have found, you can always show a distance to the fence. I did a survey a fence years ago none of the fences were on the property line. Mostly because everything was so overgrown they didn't want to clear the property lines so they just put the fences in the easiest location due to the thick brush. The one fence that was in the open started off at a corner but missed the next corner. As I was setting the corners an older man walked up to me and asked, "Did we get the fence in the right location, my dad and I put it up?". I said it started off in the right place, but the angle was off. He said well Dad just guessed, he knew it was close.
This could be the case here, they knew about where the fence should be.
