with requests for copies of “old” maps.
Just got a call from a former client that she needs to “pick up a copy of a survey” we did about 2 years ago. She explained, “The mortgage company notified me the old map is too small, and they need a bigger copy”. Uh huh.
At least the call I got from a nephew the other day was more up front and honest. The banker told him he could save himself the money for a survey if he could just put his hands on an old map not more than 5 to 10 years old. They told him he wouldn't be able to screw over the building inspector, the termite inspector, the land appraiser, the tittle insurance company, the land title agent, the realtor, etc., but at least he could screw over the surveyor. The banker also told him he could likely find the surveyor at his (the surveyor's) office any time of the day now, because he had noticed all the survey trucks had been parked at the survey office and had not been moved for over 3 weeks. OK, so I made some of this up, but you get the point.
So, starting today the following form letter goes out with every future survey we do. (For 7 years the notes have been placed on all maps of survey, but we are just now starting to include the form letter along with invoice and maps.)
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
All maps provided by this office will be current. Due to liability issues, Florida Board of Professional Surveyors and Mappers rules, and insurance requirements, this office will only disseminate reliable current information. No exceptions! Old records are strictly for the company/surveyor's use in preparing reliable current surveys.
Please be aware that updated surveys will always be offered, however a new work order will be created and a field inspection will be required.
The only exception is where a change to property is anticipated/intended. i.e. foundation location, then final survey (or topo survey/as-built survey). In these situations all work is provided under a single work order number and is completed in stages at different dates.
We are having more and more requests for copies of “old” surveys, and the reasons for these requests are many and are widely varying. However, please be aware this company does not make new copies of “old” maps. When the survey is completed all copies are signed, sealed and dated, and delivered to the client. Then, our files for that job are closed. Also, please be aware every map is always copyrighted, and is provided for a single use.
These maps are documents that serve a legal purpose. These maps are not just an item to view for informational purposes. For the company and for the surveyor these maps represent exposure and create real liability for which we are required by law to purchase professional errors and omissions liability insurance. Therefore, we have been advised to close our files when a job is completed, and to not reopen such files for the purposes or generating copies of “old” surveys.
Also, please be aware of the following 2 notes which appear on the “Map of Survey”:
Note “13.) This map is protected by copyright and is certified only to the individual or individuals named hereon or herein and only for this current singular instance. Any use or reproduction of all or of any portion of this survey and/or map without the express written permission of the surveyor is prohibited. Use of this survey and/or map in any subsequent instance is not authorized. The surveyor expressly disclaims any certification to any parties in future instances. No individual or individuals other than those named hereon or herein shall rely upon this survey and/or map.”
Note “14.) This map may not be used with an affidavit or letter of any kind for reuse including, but not limited to, future closings, plot plans, construction, landscaping, permitting, etc. It is a violation of State Statute and the Federal Copyright Act to copy or modify and reuse this map beyond the date and scope. ___________________________________, its associates, and/or agents shall not be liable for the use of this survey by any other entities or persons for any purposes beyond the date and scope."
Finally, refer to the following note placed on the map immediately above the title block: “This survey and map is copyrighted and the copying of all or of any portion of this map without the express written permission of the surveyor is prohibited.”
< EDIT: Moved to Land Surveying By Mods For Maximum Exposure 🙂 >
Good on you, don't let the rapers bend you over. Your liability in Florida is immense, as your Board of Registration has teeth. You may be reduced to prostitution because of forces beyond your control, but it is your personal choice how much the john pays for your services.
You guys need to separate boundary surveys from site plans. Boundary Surveys should not need resurveying every time a new mortgage comes along, site plans do and there is expectations of change for them. That seems to be the only reason for the concerns of using old work. Record your boundary work for all to use, don't record the site plans prepared for financial reasons, they need upgrading often compared to boundary work and there would probably be less effort to avoid the surveyor if the cost of using one did not include a boundary resurvey with every new mortgage. If monuments need replacing, that does require a recorded boundary survey but if they are in place use them after making enough checks to gain some confidence in there locations being reasonable. Should not need to be attempting to CYA by writing documents that probably are worthless in relieving liability.
jud.
Jud
There is NO SUCH THING as a "site plan" (if I'm understanding your idea here) in Florida. There are very strict definitions of survey types, and you can't just make something up and use the "special purpose" category to CYA.
It's either a boundary survey or a piece of paper.
I've gone round and round on this subject over the years, so I totally feel the pain here. Especially since I bought an existing company, I have old records that I had nothing to do with creating.
So if it comes out of my office, it's a current boundary survey. period. If the original client has a copy and gives it away, I can't do anything about that, but they ain't getting it from me or for free.
Jud
Around here, site plans are design drawings. Sounds like Jud is referring to an asbuilt, or something similiar.
Maybe things are different up here, but we don't get lots of requests for old surveys. I don't mind giving one to the person that ordered the original survey. I also don't mind giving one to the current owner to find their lines, only I cut off the title block.
Jud
Not expecting anyone to go against Statute. But if enough of you chose to, you could have legislation introduced to correct problems with what you have. A complete Boundary Survey every time a financial action is taken is poor PR and redundant in my mind. Were I a landowner facing such a thing I would be looking for any way to avoid that cost and if I was forced into it, I would be talking about required unnecessary repetitive boundary location to someone who could introduce legislation to stop the practice. Locating improvements is a valid need, repetitive Boundary Resurveying is not. Sounds like many in that State are doing their best to remove surveyors from the financial market, they will be successful if Surveyors don't do something about the requirement for repetitive boundary surveys themselves.
jud
Jud
Tommy, Boundary surveys are filed here as a Public Record, anyone who wants one can obtain a copy, even one 20 years old. Here set a monument, a filed survey is required. Do a plot plan setting no monuments or doing a topo based on an existing recorded survey does not require filing. when I have done ALTA Surveys I do two drawings, one is a Boundary Survey which is filed as a public record and the other showing the improvements based on the filed Boundary Survey which would not require Filing. Boundary's effect others, what is done inside of those boundary's need not be public as long as land use requirements are met.
jud
The term "site plan" may be defined differently on a regional basis, but I think we all understand what Jud is saying. It's a very good observation and is worthy of thought before just writing it off as "we don't do it like that around here." Maybe that's the real problem.
Does a boundary survey have to depict all improvements on a piece of property? Of course not. Only the boundaries and the improvements relative to their location should be shown. When the boundary related improvements differ from those shown on the survey, then no owners' affidavit is going to overcome that fact. Things have changed, they need an update.
However, when things are not as shown on the boundary survey, then the update should be required. If the lender/title company want to rely upon a survey, the fact that it's 10 years old shouldn't matter to them (other than the fact that surveyor can no longer be held accountable). As long as nothing has changed, the survey is still reliable. I've surveyed many tracts that haven't changed a bit since surveyed. Why update it if it's not necessary. If they want my liability to reattach, they can pay me to update it.
Jud's point, if I'm understanding it correctly, is that the other improvements which would be shown on a "site plan" that don't have anything to do with the boundaries (like building locations, sidewalks, driveways, etc.) shouldn't be shown on the survey. If your standards require it, address the standards.
JBS
Jud
:good: :good:
Implicitly this policy against issuing copies of old maps seems to be aimed at the person who is trying to avoid paying for an up-to-date survey by getting a copy of an obsolete survey. But an old survey can also be used to understand current surveys. Let's say neighbors, Alice and Bob, both ordered surveys within the last 12 months. The surveys disagree. Both have references in their deeds to a 20 year old unrecorded survey by a firm that is still in business. So should that firm have refused a copy to the two firms that did the recent surveys. Should the firm that did the old survey deny a copy to Alice and Bob so they can try to understand themselves why the modern surveys disagree.
If the firm that did the old survey tells Alice and Bob their only recourse is to pay for a third modern survey from the firm that holds the crucial map, their response will probably be to sic their dog on the next surveyor that approaches their property.
By the way "no exceptions" means "no exceptions". The original poster will only provide copies when ordered to do so by a court. No copies to surveyors, engineers, executive branch of government, or the original poster's favorite nephew.
Fair enough.
We've been considering a similar note, especially for site plans. You would not believe how many times we've had the phone call for an as-built only to find the builder or homeowner took a copy of our topographic plan, sketched in the proposed structure and obtained a building permit. Then we get the honor of locating their work.
The issue became less when I talked to the Town employees about it. They became aware that my stamp does not count for work added by others added after the plan was created.
The policy the Town has regarding architectural plans is impressive. They will not reproduce the plans because of a similar note threatening the invocation of the copyright law.
So, it's a good note and it's on my list to add, just after a couple of other things on my list.
Well, not that it happens all that often, but I have seen a few examples in my short business career of people moving property corners, either intentionally or due to construction/landscaping.
Why would I want to expose myself to liability by giving out copies of old maps? I've thought about charging for them, but it still comes down to checking the field conditions... including monuments. I've thought about creating a release document with my attorney for people to sign, but am torn about that.
If people need surveying, they can call me and order work. If they don't, then they won't. I am not in business to be some kind of map mill of old projects.
> Well, not that it happens all that often, but I have seen a few examples in my short business career of people moving property corners, either intentionally or due to construction/landscaping.
>
> Why would I want to expose myself to liability by giving out copies of old maps? I've thought about charging for them, but it still comes down to checking the field conditions... including monuments. I've thought about creating a release document with my attorney for people to sign, but am torn about that.
>
Giving out old maps doesn't expose you to liability. There is no connection between your old map, prepared before the conditions changed, and your same old map afterward. You are only liable for those conditions at the time you made your survey. I would hope you have a limitation statute that ends that liability at a certain number of years.
What can attach liability (re-start the clock) is providing an updated survey. Now it's a new survey with new liability. Charging for a copy of an old map may be seen as implying an update. No harm can be found in providing copies of old maps.
> If people need surveying, they can call me and order work. If they don't, then they won't. I am not in business to be some kind of map mill of old projects.
Some would simply call it marketing. Others may be too busy to be bothered with it. That's a personal choice.
JBS
Excellent point, ashton... I'd much rather have a survey made over 20 years ago and fence lines that follow the points still in the ground than an "updated" survey any day. Give me a truly updated survey (the 20-year old survey with new certifications confirming that the monuments haven't moved in the past 20 years) and now we've completed the entire gambit. That boundary ain't getting screwed with by no modern techno-magic. It doesn't matter how many "updates" are made. I'm banking on the 20-year old survey any day.
JBS
Something that helps is to always list the seller and the buyer on the survey, which helps limit the use of the survey to just that transaction. I know this is not always possible or even applicable, but whenever possible I have always done this to good effect.
> Charging for a copy of an old map may be seen as implying an update. No harm can be found in providing copies of old maps.
Well....I don't know why you couldn't charge a "reproduction fee" for an old map. Recover a little bit of the cost of the paper and the wage of the person running it through the copy machine.
Wave the cost for your "marketing" strategy as necessary, perhaps.
Nearly all of our surveys are filed in the public records at the county courthouse. Straight topo's, as-built's and ALTA's do not get filed. We did it. It is available to be copied at the courthouse. There is no need for us to be involved.
I will provide additional copies of an old survey to the original customer, but, they will have the old date on them as if we just pulled them from the file in the cabinet. I will provide copies to other surveyors who can benefit from them along with lots of comments and warnings about our experiences while doing the survey as best memory allows me to do.
SORRY FOR BAD ENGLISH
I have the same problem in my country,and thought that it exist in Serbia only,but now
I see that we have a global problem degrading of profession.
If we do a site plan,they think that it is forever,even if we found that terrain and object state is not the same(not even a similar). And think that if I come on terrain I will do all surveyor jobs(site plan+borders+Full Registration of objects...)for a price of one!
They will pay to everyone for their jobs,but when it comes to surveyor then there is a problem.
example:
One man come to my office for parcel subdivision in one village,since surveyor can't (law in Serbia) do that alone,he need a subdivision project from state-owned company urban planner.
I told him: Mu price is about 180$(site plan+subdivision on terrain), urban planner(project based on my job) is about 450$,and He told me: Hey you are to expensive,put the price down.
I said: But planner is not expensive to you?
He: Hey I must pay to him that much!
I pissed off :It's 180,take or leave it!
He took it 🙂
SORRY FOR BAD ENGLISH
Zemi
Do you have curved east-west lines in Serbia too? 😉
Keith
I understand your point, JB, but I prefer to spend my marketing time discussing the importance of information that can be currently relied on.
In general, I see plenty of "due diligence" time frames that are nearly wasted with the buyers agents running the clock out trying to find copies of old surveys in order to close deals. But in reality, that data MAY not be valid and SHOULD NOT be relied on when making decisions that easily reach the million dollar mark in my area. So the buyer may be making decisions on old out of date information when they could have easily gotten good current data from me. Good for the sellers, but maybe not the buyer when they find out they can't add on or put the needed pool in to make their rental property valuable, or their flood insurance is now 25K per year instead of 5K.
Andy