ashton,
Years ago I attended a continuing education class at which the instructor advised everyone to provide only the minimum required (by the client) number of map copies. Then begin praying. First, that there were no errors or omissions on the map. Second, that if there were any (errors or omissions) all copies of the map would somehow disappear before anyone noticed. (Florida formerly had a 4 year from notice statute for surveyors; now, we are protected by the professional 2 year from notice statute, which was one of the primary reasons Florida went with the 4-year degree requirement...said by the Florida Supreme Court to be necessary if surveyors were to be considered “professionals” for purposes of protection by the 2 year statue.)
Thus, when you go back into old files and create new map copies what you are doing is essentially ensuring that your liability will never cease. The instructor had totally made the point that there was zero reason for surveyor's to provide “old” copies of surveys to anyone.
ibenhavin
English OK
Story good, too.
Maybe in your state every reference within a deed to a survey made by a living surveyor is backed up by a plat filed in the public records. But if not, who can blame the land owner who has a deed that won't close and does not approximate the evidence on the ground for feeling that if the surveyor won't provide a copy of the original survey that the screwed up description was accurately copied from a screwed up survey, and the last thing the land owner would ever do is hire the idiot who did the original survey to do anything.
In other words, the surveyor who won't provide copies will be judged by the text of the deeds that are based on his surveys.
OK, here goes
I am beginning to understand Jud's terminology and what he considers a boundary survey and a "site plan" to be. Any mortgage loan survey ("SITE PLAN") done here (and it seems like in Florida as well) requires the boundary to be located and identified and the improvements shown on the tract or lot in their proper relationship - in other words, you have to do a real survey. We don't have a choice in doing it that way, it is a requirement from the State and we will have our license revoked for not showing those things.
The loan company, bank, mortgage company etc wants to have the old plat which shows those things and they want it signed and stamped by the surveyor, so that they don't have to pay to have another survey done.
In Texas the BOUNDARY SURVEY is recorded as a deed in the Courthouse either in the form of a recorded fieldnote or metes and bounds description or in a reference to the lot and block of the subdivision where it is located along with the volume and page of the map and plat records where the subdivision is recorded. Anyone can go and get a copy of it and can usually can get a copy of the "BOUNDARY SURVEY" online for next to nothing.
Simple enough, but they don't want the BOUNDARY SURVEY, they want your "SITE PLAN" and they don't just want any old copy, they want a copy that you signed and stamped. When they can't find the copies that you gave them back when you did the survey, they will be coming to you for new "old copies" of the SITE PLAN. Many times, "they" are often the second, third, etc buyer since the original buyer that paid you to do the survey. Now since you are willing to just give away a copy of your "SITE PLANS"at no cost, they will be calling you up several times a day for other copies of your "SITE PLANS".
Call it marketing if you want, but around here we call it cutting our own throats.
Thankfully, most surveyors around here will not provide copies of old surveys ("SITE PLANS" ) to people who want to cut surveyors out the mortgage loan process. Those that do find themselves spending great amounts of time explaining old surveys to "cost conscient" buyers (who did not hire them in the first place and are not going to hire them in the future if they can get a free copy from the surveyor of the next property they purchase) and very little time doing new surveys for lenders who are too busy out looking for the last surveyor who did the property they are now lending money on.
ashton,
I hear you. And, your points are quite valid. Florida happens to be one of the states without a recording requirement for individual surveys (only subdivision plats are required to be recorded...that is why it is called a “Plat Book”...all other surveys are referred to as either sketches or maps and can not be called a “plat”), therefore very few boundary surveys ever find their way into the county records and never in a "Plat Book".
For sure I would never blame the land owner for getting upset as regards to my policy. I can only do my best to explain my situation to him/her.
I am the only surveyor in a small county, have a 37 year old business which I started from scratch, and have an archive of 10,000 separate surveys. Ten years ago I had nearly 50 employees. Today there is only one employee and myself, and if I were to start giving away copies of old surveys I soon wouldn't be needing even him. Every one in the county knows me, and everyone knows that I would likely have been the one to do the previous survey. Therefore, I am frequently contacted by those hoping to get away without having to pay for a survey. And, that includes lots of folks.
So, besides trying to limit my liability exposure, I also have a need to protect my investment and do the best to at least keep my one employee employed (he has been with me for a long time).
ibenhavin
JBStahl,
In Florida surveyors are protected by the 2 year professional statute. However, it has little to do with the date of the map. Rather it is 2 years from when the defect was discovered or should have been discovered. Depending on how easy (or hard) certain defects would have been for the average land owner to become aware of, there is some likelihood that the time could run considerably longer than 2 years from the map date.
Also, when no map copies exist (very common in Florida) it is likely going to be problematic for anyone wishing to win a suit against you. Now, then if the surveyor is obliging and determined to make sure copies will always be available I would suggest that surveyor become an error free surveyor, but I wouldn't want to be him.
ibenhavin
English OK
I just responded to a questionnaire from our state society which was gathering information from surveyors so that the society counsel could have input from us field guys as they enter onto talks with the real estate board. They are trying to outline some sort of legislation to require a survey for property transactions. No details on the proposal yet.
My main issue is that of the title insurance. If you don't have a current survey, you will have a huge hole in your policy. They don't charge any less for the policy, you just have less coverage. That's where I'd like to see some rules put in place.
Are any of you aware of state-level statutes requiring surveys?
English OK
27 V.S.A. § 341 (Vermont) has this requirement:
"(b) A deed or other conveyance of land which includes a reference to a survey prepared or revised after July 1, 1988 may be recorded only if it is accompanied by the survey to which it refers, or cites the volume and page in the land records showing where the survey has previously been recorded."
That isn't directly related to title insurance, and certainly doesn't require any surveys.
English OK
I wonder how many title companies will make guarantees
the purchaser AND their assigns.
It may be that the confusion lies in using the term "boundary survey" to mean a survey prepared for use of parties for a real estate closing. That's really what they are re-using or wanting updated. There are different terms for them around the country, i.e. Mortage Surveys, Mortgage Inspections, etc.
Florida's problem, as I see it, is that they've merged the two different products, a boundary survey and a mortgage survey into a single product. While the rest of the country seems satisfied to place a disclaimer on the mortgage survey stating "this ___ does not represent a boundary survey and should not be relied upon to ___," Florida has taken the position that they are equal products which requires the surveyor to perform a complete boundary survey on every mortgage inspection.
This is contrary to the goals of the real estate industry which is being forced by the government to find ways to lower the origination costs on mortgages. While they are ok with $150 home inspections, termite inspections, etc., the full cost of a boundary survey on every mortgage origination is completely out of line. The parties to the transaction don't need a new boundary survey for every transaction. As much as we'd like to see one required, they are cost prohibitive from the perspective of an origination fee.
That's why the mortgage survey was invented. It's a product that can fulfill the needs for those transactions which don't require a full boundary survey. Survey firms seem ok with mass producing mortgage surveys for the $150 fee that the origination costs can swallow. Provided, of course, that they don't have the equivalence of a boundary survey and provided that, upon inspection the surveyor finds a boundary survey is in order, a full survey can be recommended prior to conducting the mortgage survey. By providing two separate products, both industries and the landowners are protected while also keeping the origination costs in line.
Merging the two products, as Florida has, proves to be entirely counterproductive. The title companies are shopping for updates and the surveyor's liability for a boundary survey is refreshed at every property transaction. Surveyors find that hiding their surveys is the best way to protect themselves from extended liability (a statutory problem based on the discovery rule) which is counter-productive for perpetuating boundary evidence for future retracement. At least by requiring a boundary survey for every transaction, there will likely be a perpetuation of boundary markers, all being uncalled-for monuments which can be rejected at the whim of the next surveyor.
JBS